Your saving grace, Lurk, is your sense of humor. I wouldn't worry about apologizing if I were you. Apologizing is a very overrated virtue, in my opinion.
--- In [email protected], "lurkernomore20002000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Okay. Bear with me. Okay. Okay. Okay. I, I, I, Bear with me. I > apolo, I apolo I aplog. I can't do it. I'm sorry. I just can't do > it. I'm gonna go on a bike ride with my daughter. When I get back > I'll try again. > > --- In [email protected], "feste37" <feste37@> wrote: > > > > What's interesting to me about Knapp's story is why it took him > four > > attempts to get out of the TM movement. He tried three times and > > failed and had to get two people to help him get out. I'm curious > > about this. Everyone I know who left the TM movement simply left > > it. No problem. If you no longer like the movement, you leave. What > > could be easier than that? > > > > And as for you Lurk, are you planning on apologizing for your > habit of > > picking on newcomers here and insulting them? I bet not. It must be > > easier to think back to 7th grade and just pretend to apologize. > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "lurkernomore20002000" > > <steve.sundur@> wrote: > > > > > > Neat story. There's a lot I can relate to here. Not so much > the TM > > > part, but more the owning up to past patterns of behavior, and > > > tendencies, and working to bring them into balance. And I > remember > > > telling my cousin who I was close with, and who could sometimes > was > > > pretty shitty to me, that I apologize for any harm I might have > > > caused him, just wanting to clear the air and my conscience. At > > > some point, you just want to do that-apologize to anyone you may > > > hurt or offended. It's kind of nice feeling. If I could > apologize > > > in person to the guy I called "mole face", in seventh grade, I > would > > > do so. As it is, I apologize to him mentally anytime that > memory > > > comes up. > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "John M. Knapp, LMSW" > > > <jmknapp53@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks, TurquoiseB, for your extremely kind words. I'll try to > > > live up to them! > > > > > > > > Thanks, also for your story about Rachel. Yeah, I can see > myself > > > in that story -- both the > > > > hurtful side and the changed side. > > > > > > > > My journey toward change *began* in leaving TM. I sought out > exit > > > counseling from Janja > > > > Lalich and Margaret Singer in 1995-96. I offer them so many > > > thanks. More than I can say. > > > > > > > > But in all honesty, their exit counseling had limited effect > on > > > me. It got me out of TM, and I > > > > did finally stay out of TM after 3 previous tries to leave it. > > > > > > > > But I remained one screwed up puppy. Not only did I remain > enraged > > > and acting out on > > > > AMT -- I even turned on these two people who tried to help me. > > > I've apologized to Janja, > > > > who graciously accepted my attempt to make amends. > Unfortunately, > > > Margaret died > > > > before I could talk with her. That's a lesson I take to heart. > I > > > try to make amends now as > > > > soon as I can. Life's too short and unexpected to waste any > time. > > > > > > > > When I really started to reflect on my shit was when I entered > > > therapy. It may not be for > > > > everyone, but it definitely did some good for me. > > > > > > > > And, just as you surmise, professionally entering the helping > > > professions in 1998 (as a > > > > personal aide to autistic and developmentally challenged > people) > > > really turned my head > > > > around. > > > > > > > > I haven't arrived. I still struggle mightily with nasty > personal > > > challenges, such as > > > > narcissism. And I still act out from time to time. > > > > > > > > But I believe I have the tools to reflect on my feelings, > > > thoughts, actions, beliefs and make > > > > headway. > > > > > > > > I'll never be perfect. Perfection is a process, not a > destination, > > > to my way of thinking. > > > > > > > > But as I wrote recently: I'm busy becoming the man my teen- > aged > > > self would have been > > > > proud of. And, finally at age 55, I see light at the end of > that > > > particular tunnel. > > > > > > > > In that spirit, I offer the individuals and the community that > I > > > may have harmed in the past > > > > a sincere apology. If you feel you need a more personal > > > expression, please do not hesitate > > > > to contact me and share your grievance. > > > > > > > > Thanks again, TurquoiseB, for a chance to talk at some length > on > > > these matters. > > > > > > > > J. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <no_reply@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "feste37" <feste37@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not on a spiritual path, which is a meaningless > phrase. > > > > > > You're pretending to be all nicey-nice but I don't believe > > > > > > a word of it. > > > > > > > > > > This speaks to your limitations, feste, not John's. > > > > > > > > > > I had a good friend in the Rama trip who was a real > > > > > ball-busting bitch. She had the rep of having made > > > > > *every person* in the companies she worked with cry > > > > > as a result of her heartless treatment of them. > > > > > > > > > > Then she caught a clue and bailed from the Rama trip > > > > > and, over time, found that she needed something new > > > > > in her life. So she went back to school and became > > > > > a psychologist, and began to practice at it. I saw > > > > > her again a few years later and the change in her > > > > > was truly amazing. Almost all of the "rough edges" > > > > > had been polished off of her; she was in danger of > > > > > being a truly balanced and wonderful human being. > > > > > She attributed the change (which she was more than > > > > > aware of, too) to having forced herself into a > > > > > position in which she *had* to become compassionate > > > > > and caring, as part of her *job description*. Work- > > > > > ing with people who had come to her for help had > > > > > forced her to *put aside* her own samskaras and > > > > > focus on helping them with theirs. > > > > > > > > > > I'm betting that you have never placed yourself in > > > > > such a position, feste, and that neither has Lawson > > > > > or Judy. It shows. > > > > > > > > > > I, for one, notice rather a change in the way that > > > > > John handles himself lately, compared to how he > > > > > used to. That shows, too. He refuses to be baited > > > > > into replying angrily and with malice, even when > > > > > taunted by those who clearly mean him harm. Like > > > > > Curtis, he tries to find a "middle way" whereby he > > > > > can remain true to his own beliefs while not > > > > > discounting or (more important) discrediting > > > > > the beliefs of others. > > > > > > > > > > In short, I see John as Having Made Progress. And > > > > > at the same time, I see the "on the program TMers" > > > > > here who are giving him a hard time as having made > > > > > none whatsoever. They are still stuck in the same > > > > > reactivity and anger that they were when I first > > > > > encountered them years ago. They still react by > > > > > distrusting *anything* a TM critic says and by > > > > > demonizing the critic. John doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > IMO, that kinda indicates that whatever John is > > > > > doing *works*, and that whatever these TMers are > > > > > doing *doesn't*. He's changing, in what most would > > > > > consider a positive way, and his tormentors are not. > > > > > > > > > > John, if you're still reading this thread, I wonder > > > > > if you can comment on what might have precipitated > > > > > this change. My bet is that it's the same phenom- > > > > > enon I saw in my friend Rachel. The very *process* > > > > > of practicing a profession that *requires* that > > > > > you transcend your samskaras to help others allows > > > > > you to better transcend them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "John M. Knapp, LMSW" > > > > > > <jmknapp53@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "feste37" > <feste37@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're being deliberately obtuse. People who claim > they > > > were lied to > > > > > > > > again and again are playing the victim. Maharishi > didn't > > > lie to you. > > > > > > > > He gave you a wonderful technique for spiritual > growth. It > > > was > > > > > you who > > > > > > > > lacked understanding -- and then you betrayed the > person > > > who had > > > > > > > > helped you. Shame. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it's too bad that you label people who disagree > with > > > you as > > > > > > obtuse -- or any other > > > > > > > hurtful label. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I gave my definition of victimization. Your differs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mine works for me. I'm sure yours works for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe the Maharishi lied to me -- and to others. > You > > > don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See? We can disagree without hurtfulness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I expect no less from someone following a spiritual path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
