> > >> --- "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Yifu and FFL readers, > > >>> > > >>> For your information, Dr. Pagels died in 1988. Any statements > > >>> that he made while alive has been superceded by discoveries > > >>> made in recent years in quantum physics. If he was alive > > >>> today, he would have changed his position. > > >>> > > >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Pagels > > >> > > > --- turquoiseb <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > I rest my case. Quantum Idiots. > > > > > --- "John" <jr_esq@> wrote: > > > > > > Barry, > > > > > > You haven't had a case here for a very long time. > > >> > > >>> --- "Yifu" <yifuxero@> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> from Skeptic.com, by Dr. Heinz Pagels, physicist.: > > >>>> ... > > >>>> " > > >>>> The claim that the fields of modern physics have anything to do with > > >>>> the "field of consciousness" is false. The notion that what physicists > > >>>> call "the vacuum state" has anything to do with consciousness is > > >>>> nonsense. The claim that large numbers of people meditating helps > > >>>> reduce crime and war by creating a unified field of consciousness is > > >>>> foolishness of a high order. The presentation of the ideas of modern > > >>>> physics side by side, and apparently supportive of, the ideas of the > > >>>> Maharishi about pure consciousness can only be intended to deceive > > >>>> those who might not know any better. > > >>>> > > >>>> Reading these materials authorized by the Maharishi causes me distress > > >>>> because I am a man who values the truth. To see the beautiful and > > >>>> profound ideas of modern physics, the labor of generations of > > >>>> scientists, so willfully perverted provokes a feeling of compassion > > >>>> for those who might be taken in by these distortions. I would like to > > >>>> be generous to the Maharishi and his movement because it supports > > >>>> world peace and other high ideals. But none of these ideals could > > >>>> possibly be realized within the framework of a philosophy that so > > >>>> willfully distorts scientific truth (Pagels). > > >>>> What Chopra is peddling is quantum gibberish." > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > --- "Xenophaneros Anartaxius" <anartaxius@> wrote: > > > > First of all, on what basis would Pagels have changed his opinion? It is > > true Pagels trashed the TM theory of quantum mechanics. This was based on > > things Larry Domash had written. As I recall, Domash used the vacuum state > > of quantum mechanics as an analogy to explain TM, much in the way one might > > use an orange and a golf ball to create an analogy describing how the Moon > > and Earth, orbit around a common centre of gravity. I am not acutally aware > > of how the quantum vacuum analogy morphed into TC *is* the quantum vacuum, > > or how this subsequently morphed into the Unified Field equivalency that we > > see today under Hagelin. Hagelin is still of course talking about this. I > > do not know what Domash's view would be today. > > > > I recently re-listened to a debate with woo meister Deepak Chopra, > > neuroscientist Sam Harris, skeptic Michael Shermer, and scholar Jean > > Houston that took place in 2010. Though Chopra is not in the movement any > > more, he does hew to the new age quantum nonsense that many, including the > > TMO, make their stock in trade. In this debate, the skeptics raked Chopra > > over the hot coals repeatedly for this. What was really interesting about > > this debate was it was a Cal Tech, and physicist Leonard Mlodinaw was in > > the audience stood up and offered Chopra a short course of quantum > > mechanics to straighten out his misuse of quantum notation. Mlodinaw, whose > > field is mathematical physics, recently wrote a book with Stephen Hawking > > (The Grand Design). Mlodinaw said he had never come across a definition of > > consciousness that made any sense. It was clear that for Mlodinaw the > > correlations between consciouness and quantum mechanics that Chopra was > > presenting made no sense whatsoever, that is, it was nonsense. > > > > The full debate: http://youtu.be/wi2IC6e5DUY > > The debate covers much more ground than just this aspect of spiritual > > nomenclature and physics. > > > Xeno, > --- "John" <jr_esq@...> wrote: > > It appears that Mlodinaw is just as confused as Hawking is about the > importance of consciousness in the field of quantum physics. Let me present > you a simple thought experiment: If you were the only sentient being in a > given universe, and you died, would the universe still exist? The answer is > NO. The universe will disappear to nothingness. Why? Because you are the > only person who is capable of conceiving the dimensions of space and time. > Without your presence, how is it possible for the universe to exist? >
For the first 30 or 40 million years after the big-bang there was no life, not even bacteria in the universe. The first generation stars made of pure hydrogen had to create other elements and explode. Most of them collapsed into stellar black holes. These stellar black-holes merged with one another to form super-massive blackholes and used their massive gravity to evolve galaxies. Which logically means this theoritical "Observer" has to exist outside the bubble universe.
