--- In [email protected], "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > <snip> > Gurus do not ask for anything. They are givers and take > only a > > > devotees sins. > > > > I was with ya up to the last sentence. > > > > I'm asking because I'm always curious when I run into > > someone who believes that a guru can "take a devotee's > > sin" or somehow mitigate his karmas. > > > > What do you think is the *mechanism* by which this is > > accomplished? > > > > As I understand karma, I don't see it as possible. I > > certainly believe it's possible that a teacher can > > speed up the student's ability to work through and > > process his own karma, but to "resolve" it or make > > it "go away?" Can't see how that could work. > > > > So I'm curious, since you seem to believe in your > > own last line above, how you envision this happening, > > how you think it "works." Thanks in advance. > > > > Anyone else who has a theory can chime in, too, if > > they'd like. > > > > Unc > > OK, here's my chime- what I have experienced is that karma has two > elements, the karma of thought and the karma of action, though it > is the karma of thought which is most powerful. > > What > I mean is, it is the repetitions of our thoughts which manifest > results, either presenting a situation which we may then act upon, > or manifesting a reality of which we are then a part of, and may > act within. This occurs whether we want it to or not, because it > is the law of cause and effect; karma. > > The awareness we have of our thoughts and thinking process > determines the karma that we live. If we perform an action and then > anticipate its result, either joyfully or fearfully, that is what > will come back to us. We constantly create and recreate our reality. > > The function of a Guru in this process is twofold. One, the Guru's > presence can clear our mind, purify it, so that we are more aware > of > the future effects we are thinking up for ourselves, and two, the > presence of the Guru purifies our mind so that we naturally create > more pleasing karma for ourselves vs. living the effects of impure > thoughts.
Nicely said. I can generally buy that, because it puts the resolution of the samskaras right in the lap of the person who created them. What you explained is basically what I had in mind when I said that a teacher could "speed up" the resolution of karmas. My issue is with the oft-repeated and oft-believed idea that the guru is somehow "absorbing" or "resolving" the karmas him- or herself. That -- the concept of "grace" -- seems to me to be unnecessary for the proper functioning of evolution and realization of enlightenment, and from an Occum's Razor point of view, I tend to write off the unnecessary as unlikely. In other words, in my view the universe works perfectly well as the interplay of karma and free will. Add a third element -- grace -- which by definition would violate this interplay, and you've unnecessarily complicated your model. But to each his own... > An alternative to being at the effect of personal karma is to stop > thinking. By this, I mean becoming established in that reality > which is beyond thinking. By doing this, we leave it to Brahman > to deliver our karma to us. We no longer create it, and instead > always effortlessly enjoy good karma. I experience this, though > I am not sure of the mechanics of it. It just works- must have > something to do with enjoying the immense bliss of the Creator > after subsuming ourselves to Him/Her. Interestingly, I can grok what you're saying and identify with it, even though I personally believe neither in a Creator or a Creation. The description of the effect and the enjoyment of the effect remains the same whether you believe that the Absolute has sentience and intent of its own or not. Go figure. :-) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
