--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long <sharelong60@...> wrote: > > turq, you've said that Lenz could levitate and fill > a room with gold light. I'm trying to reconcile that > with what you say here about his sexual abuse of women.
He could -- and did -- do both. Your problem is called cognitive dissonance. You have ideas about what enlightenment is and what it is not. Those ideas have nothing to do with enlightenment, or the people who might be experiencing it. > How do you understand this seeming contradiction? I don't understand it. I don't think anyone can. It's just what happens. A person can be experiencing full-blown states of enlightenment and still be a real dick. Get over the idea that enlightenment equates to perfection. > I remember once before when I asked a similar question, > you said that you think, and here I have to paraphrase, > that he was ruined by the power. Was Lenz abusing women > even at the beginning of his teaching career? He would never have thought of it as abuse, but I do. But this using his charisma -- of which he had much -- to seduce his female students was there from the beginning. It was the narcissism and the craziness that got worse over time as he began to "believe his own PR" as a teacher. I do believe that he committed the Cardinal Sin of those who become spiritual teachers -- doing it too soon, before he was ready to handle the pressures. I believe the same thing of Maharishi. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: turquoiseb <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:57 AM > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, > Ph.D., Igor Kufayeïûÿv, and Mark McCooey. > Moderated by Rick Archer > > > >  > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jason" <jedi_spock@> wrote: > > > > These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. > > How much interest you should show in other people's private > > lives is a matter of debate. > > > > As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the > > phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In > > business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. > > > > Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth > > and move on. These women were adults and they knew what > > they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to > > pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. > > You mistook my intent in saying what I said. Of course > there is an element of groupie behavior in women falling > onto their backs for people in positions of power or > celebrity. That certainly happens. > > But there is ALSO behavior in which the people IN these > positions of power or celebrity ABUSE their positions, > and make use of them to get their rocks off with these > gullible and stupid women. The TM organization was rife > with this kind of "abuse of position." In Europe I saw > dozens of guys on International Staff who specialized > in "seducing the course participants," all while claim- > ing to be celibate themselves. They would come on to > some naive TMer or TM teacher and say things like "I > know that I should be celibate, but I'm just SO attracted > to you." Then they'd fuck them a few times and forget > them, and run the same number on someone else the next > month, or the next week. When called on this behavior, > many of them would claim not to even be able to > remember having done the same thing the week or month > before. It was *accepted* behavior, and as we all know > now, modeled on the mindset of their teacher Maharishi, > who did exactly the same thing. > > There IS such a thing as a "power differential" in real > life. Like the one that bosses have over their secre- > taries when they badger them into having sex with them. > Like the one that therapists have with their vulnerable > patients. Like the one that teachers in schools have > with their students. Abuse these levels of trust and > responsibility in those organizations and you'll get > your ass fired or lose your license or go to prison. > > But when it happens in "spiritual" organizations, this > same abuse of inherent "power differentials" and abuse > of trust is largely ignored, and thus quietly sanctioned. > People see it and then look the other way, to avoid > dealing with the cognitive dissonance of people they > assumed to be trustworthy proving themselves less than > trustworthy. They pretend it never happened, because > hypocrisy is easier to live with than the knowledge > that their assumptions about these people in power are > and have always been false. > > And worse, if someone dares to cry, "The Emperor has > no clothes, and in fact is waving his dick at every > woman in town" the way Edg just did, the True Believers > gang up on him and try to make *him* the Bad Guy. > > I think it sucks. I lived with such hypocrisy in the > Rama trip, and will never do so again. I saw him fuck > his way through dozens of women, taking advantage of > their naivete and their adoration. I saw him ruin some > of these women's lives, get them pregnant and then > demand that they get abortions, and then dump them as > soon as he was "finished with them." I knew many of > these women personally, and provided a shoulder for > them to cry on after being made to feel like a Kleenex > that he'd jacked off into. > > That's WRONG. That an ABUSE OF TRUST. That's inexcusable. > > Trying to excuse it by saying that these women are/were > adults and thus "knew what they were doing" just doesn't > cut it. The incredible sway that spiritual teachers have > over their students is never to be forgotten. Many of > these women considered Rama almost as a God, and he > encouraged them to think that way. Many of the TM women > probably had their own reasons for bedding Hagelin (to > "get close" to someone who was "close" with Maharishi, > and thus possibly pick up some "darshan cooties") or > Maharishi himself (*direct* "darshan cooties"). But > it was still the teachers or the people in power who > took advantage of these women's naivete and their > innocence to fuck them and then throw them away. > > Do NOT try to make me a party in condoning this kind > of behavior in a spiritual setting, or in any other. > I once got fired from a job for counseling a woman > who had been the victim of sexual abuse by the CFO > of the company what to do to protect herself. He was > a serial abuser, and *everyone* in the company knew > it and kept quiet about it. I gave her a tape recorder > and told her to record his next demands to "Stay late > and work" (meaning "Stay and suck my cock"), and she > did it. The CFO got fired, the resulting lawsuit cost > the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I > got fired for having suggested it. I considered my > actions a success. > > Power -- real or only perceived -- comes with > RESPONSIBILITY. You just don't abuse that responsi- > bility, and abuse those you're responsible TO. Don't > you DARE try to make excuses for Hagelin or Bevan > or any of the others taking advantage of their > perceived positions of power to fuck women who > wouldn't have given them a second look if they > didn't hold those positions of power. Naive or > not, they didn't deserve to be treated the way > they were treated. > > > --- Michael Jackson <mjackson74@> wrote: > > > > > > Given the behavior of leaders of the Movement through the years, it is > > > legitimate to ask questions when behavior begins to manifest. It has been > > > this way with spiritual movements for decades. People begin to misbehave > > > and their disciples refuse to believe it, and the gurus and their chief > > > sycophants deny it. Happened with Muktananda, Amrit Desai, Kriyananda - > > > when I met J. Donald Walters, I would never have thought of him as a > > > sexual user, but damned if he didn't turn out to be so - that's why he > > > fled to Italy and stayed there till he died. > > > > > > Hagelin is one of the main guys the TMO and Lynch use to promote TM to > > > whomever they think will bite - if he has mis-used his position as a > > > faculty member to prey on his female students, the truth needs to be > > > known. Since Edg had mentioned it, I wondered what the facts are. All > > > legitimate questions and inquiry. The only problem is that some people > > > who want to believe TM and its leaders are pure as the driven snow can't > > > stand the light of truth to be shined on TM and its honchos. Hagelin's > > > behavior if true needs to be made public so the people Hagelin pitches TM > > > and his nonsense physics theories to know how credible he is - after all, > > > TM supposedly makes all things better - and that should include behavior > > > for those in positions of leadership. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: feste37 <feste37@> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:23 AM > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel > > > Discussiïûÿon ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢â∠" John > > > Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayeïûÿv, and Mark McCooey. > > > Moderated by Rick Archer > > > > > > > > > What a pathetic post. Peddling old gossip, spreading rumors, denouncing > > > others for alleged immorality. If you can't do better than this, > > > Duveyoung, I suggest you STFU. > > > > > > > > > --- Duveyoung <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I "know" only from gossip, but the gossip was a constant patter of > > > > "tidbits." I saw him at dinner ONCE with a married lady, but that > > > > could have been innocent.......yeah, right, sure...... Small town with > > > > only about three restaurants to "get fancy dancy" and of course he was > > > > seen around town a lot. I, with four kids at MSAE had all kinds of pot > > > > lucks etc. to hob nob enough to catch the gossip. Of course, EVEN > > > > ONCE, would be enough for my "Lutheranism patterns amplified by my TM > > > > shame-on-you patterns" to glom onto and bookmark the anecdotes. Same > > > > deal with Bevan, and I personally saw Larry Domesh indulging in lust > > > > sitting a mere 20 feet from Maharishi as he lectured to a private > > > > group! Yup, sex is a powerful mind twister, and, hey, the movement > > > > never gave us help-one to meet those challenges, so it's not like we > > > > can throw the book at these guys for moral-criminality, but yeah, I do. > > > > > > > > Note: The Karina Hotel fire was caused by a guy who started his girl > > > > friend's room on fire due to her "cheating" on him. > > > > > > > > Careful out there on the long rounding courses, kiddies, people be > > > > destressing! > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Michael Jackson <mjackson74@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have heard from time to time about Hagelin's womanizing but nothing > > > > > very specific - how do you know all this stuff or has it just been > > > > > kind of circulating around and not specific? > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Duveyoung <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:47 PM > > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion > > > > > ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢â∠" John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor > > > > > Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Jason" <jedi_spock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It takes two to tangle. You seem to imply that he was > > > > > > dragging them to the cave with a stone club in hand. > > > > > > Looks like TM didn't do any good to those women either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can assign 50% of the blame on the married women, cuz, hey, > > > > > free will and all that, but..... nope. > > > > > > > > > > The equation changes when one of the partners has so much to offer to > > > > > the (spiritually, financially, socially) impoverished other. > > > > > > > > > > He took advantage. He leveraged. He must be held to the same > > > > > standard we held Maharishi about his sexcapades. > > > > > > > > > > Hagelin never not once ever never once ever said: > > > > > > > > > > "Hey, babe, nice just meeting you, a minion, and me, a royal scion, > > > > > and I know you're married, and it's a sin to fuck me, but, hey, let's > > > > > just put all that aside and not dwell on the YEARS AND YEARS OF > > > > > DAMAGE it would do to your husband and your kids if they find out." > > > > > > > > > > Hagelin never asked like that, right, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE > > > > > EXPECTED FROM THEM, cuz, HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING. And he knew he > > > > > was ABSOLUTELY HARMING these women -- "harming" means "alluring women > > > > > to change their lives so dramatically and so covertly that it was > > > > > certain that when the affairs were revealed, all the lying and > > > > > disloyalty would not be easily dealt with -- without YEARS of > > > > > professional help for all concerned." > > > > > > > > > > That is fucking harmful. > > > > > > > > > > At least Dr. Bloomfield drugged his women and didn't try to brainwash > > > > > them into breaking the trust enjoyed with virtually everyone in their > > > > > social circle. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, sure, it MIGHT evolve some folks who would rise to the > > > > > challenges of facing ones personal integrity being shitcanned after > > > > > one has torn ones life up like a bad parking ticket, yep, could be, > > > > > but on average, every woman who ever fucked Hagelin had to face > > > > > themselves in perhaps the harshest light they've ever had shone upon > > > > > them. And it wouldn't be pretty what they saw in the mirror. > > > > > > > > > > Each woman, on her death bed, gets to say: "I fucked Hagelin and > > > > > ruined my marriage and my kids hate me to this day for what I did to > > > > > their father when I could have just gone to a marriage counselor or > > > > > something, or I could have at least faced their father forthrightly > > > > > about the marital dissonance and just said, 'I'm ending it, but at > > > > > least I'm being honest and not sneaking behind your back and > > > > > cuckolding you and doing all the things that incur rage in others who > > > > > are blinded by their trust and loyalty towards the cheating partner > > > > > and who will have no clue until it's revealed to them as if a bomb > > > > > going off.'" > > > > > > > > > > Who wants to say that? Hagelin made every woman NOT CONSIDER THAT. > > > > > He gave them, what?, promises of, what? Don't even try to tell me > > > > > all the women were simply randy and Hagelin was a hunk. Women don't > > > > > go for that. They might be horny, but it is only cuz they want the > > > > > whole man's wherewithal -- not just his dick. > > > > > > > > > > He leveraged by promising who knows what. That is not saintly. That > > > > > is not honest. That is fucking evil. And TM didn't do a THING TO > > > > > CHANGE IT. > > > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
