Carol, I like to use the word undeveloped because both weak and ignorant have such negative connotations whereas undeveloped does not. Immature also has negative connotations. Anyway, I think we're all undeveloped to some extent and in some areas of life. And I think we're all able to develop where we need to. And I admit that probably some people have better opportunities for developing fully than other people do.
And I do think it's appropriate for even victims to pursue what will help them avoid victimhood in the future. ________________________________ From: Carol <jchwe...@gmail.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:13 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer I agree Feste...except for maybe the word "weak." And I'm glad you noted "many" and not "all." Perhaps "ignorant" would be a more agreeable term than "weak" for me. Some folks endure horrible circumstances. I think they'd have to be strong to endure what they do. And then maybe they are ignorant to their own weakness..or maybe I just don't want to accept that I, myself, have been "weak." Hmmm... ******** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <feste37@...> wrote: > > > > Many people who get abused are weak, and it is their weakness that attracts > the abuse. The abuser instinctively smells out weakness, and it incites his > cruelty. You can blame the abuser if you want, but it always takes two: one > who asks to be abused, and the other who obliges. If you want to alter the > pattern, get stronger. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <jchwelch@> wrote: > > > > I just wrote something in my journal last night: "I don't understand how > > [name excluded] could do what [s/he] did." Then... "Well, I don't > > understand it in my heart. But in my head the explanation is that [name > > excluded] is a sociopath." > > > > These Jekyll and Hyde type people who charm and then harm and then appear > > to have no conscience about it whatsoever....well, I still don't > > 'understand' it. And it's still hard to accept that a person actually has > > no conscience. Yet, 'no-conscience sociopath' does give a surface > > explanation to the bizarre behavior. > > > > For years I gave ab-users the benefit of the doubt and didn't see them as > > abusing, but rather saw them as making mistakes or simply being human. My > > bad and naivety. Sometimes I long for innocence again. Though it really > > wasn't innocence; it was denial. > > > > ************ > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long <sharelong60@> wrote: > > > > > > turq, you've said that Lenz could levitate and fill a room with gold > > > light. I'm trying to reconcile that with what you say here about his > > > sexual abuse of women. How do you understand this seeming > > > contradiction? I remember once before when I asked a similar question, > > > you said that you think, and here I have to paraphrase, that he was > > > ruined by the power. Was Lenz abusing women even at the beginning of > > > his teaching career? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: turquoiseb <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> > > > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:57 AM > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussi John Hagelin, > > > Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. > > > Moderated by Rick Archer > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jason" <jedi_spock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > These kind of sexual relationships are a bit of a gray area. > > > > How much interest you should show in other people's private > > > > lives is a matter of debate. > > > > > > > > As Barry pointed out, 'Groupie with standards', the > > > > phenomenon exists in all fields and 'all walks of life'. In > > > > business, in sports, in the movie industry and so on. > > > > > > > > Many young women use these guys as fodder for their growth > > > > and move on. These women were adults and they knew what > > > > they were doing. They are groupies voluntarily and to > > > > pretend that it's an one-sided affair is not accurate. > > > > > > You mistook my intent in saying what I said. Of course > > > there is an element of groupie behavior in women falling > > > onto their backs for people in positions of power or > > > celebrity. That certainly happens. > > > > > > But there is ALSO behavior in which the people IN these > > > positions of power or celebrity ABUSE their positions, > > > and make use of them to get their rocks off with these > > > gullible and stupid women. The TM organization was rife > > > with this kind of "abuse of position." In Europe I saw > > > dozens of guys on International Staff who specialized > > > in "seducing the course participants," all while claim- > > > ing to be celibate themselves. They would come on to > > > some naive TMer or TM teacher and say things like "I > > > know that I should be celibate, but I'm just SO attracted > > > to you." Then they'd fuck them a few times and forget > > > them, and run the same number on someone else the next > > > month, or the next week. When called on this behavior, > > > many of them would claim not to even be able to > > > remember having done the same thing the week or month > > > before. It was *accepted* behavior, and as we all know > > > now, modeled on the mindset of their teacher Maharishi, > > > who did exactly the same thing. > > > > > > There IS such a thing as a "power differential" in real > > > life. Like the one that bosses have over their secre- > > > taries when they badger them into having sex with them. > > > Like the one that therapists have with their vulnerable > > > patients. Like the one that teachers in schools have > > > with their students. Abuse these levels of trust and > > > responsibility in those organizations and you'll get > > > your ass fired or lose your license or go to prison. > > > > > > But when it happens in "spiritual" organizations, this > > > same abuse of inherent "power differentials" and abuse > > > of trust is largely ignored, and thus quietly sanctioned. > > > People see it and then look the other way, to avoid > > > dealing with the cognitive dissonance of people they > > > assumed to be trustworthy proving themselves less than > > > trustworthy. They pretend it never happened, because > > > hypocrisy is easier to live with than the knowledge > > > that their assumptions about these people in power are > > > and have always been false. > > > > > > And worse, if someone dares to cry, "The Emperor has > > > no clothes, and in fact is waving his dick at every > > > woman in town" the way Edg just did, the True Believers > > > gang up on him and try to make *him* the Bad Guy. > > > > > > I think it sucks. I lived with such hypocrisy in the > > > Rama trip, and will never do so again. I saw him fuck > > > his way through dozens of women, taking advantage of > > > their naivete and their adoration. I saw him ruin some > > > of these women's lives, get them pregnant and then > > > demand that they get abortions, and then dump them as > > > soon as he was "finished with them." I knew many of > > > these women personally, and provided a shoulder for > > > them to cry on after being made to feel like a Kleenex > > > that he'd jacked off into. > > > > > > That's WRONG. That an ABUSE OF TRUST. That's inexcusable. > > > > > > Trying to excuse it by saying that these women are/were > > > adults and thus "knew what they were doing" just doesn't > > > cut it. The incredible sway that spiritual teachers have > > > over their students is never to be forgotten. Many of > > > these women considered Rama almost as a God, and he > > > encouraged them to think that way. Many of the TM women > > > probably had their own reasons for bedding Hagelin (to > > > "get close" to someone who was "close" with Maharishi, > > > and thus possibly pick up some "darshan cooties") or > > > Maharishi himself (*direct* "darshan cooties"). But > > > it was still the teachers or the people in power who > > > took advantage of these women's naivete and their > > > innocence to fuck them and then throw them away. > > > > > > Do NOT try to make me a party in condoning this kind > > > of behavior in a spiritual setting, or in any other. > > > I once got fired from a job for counseling a woman > > > who had been the victim of sexual abuse by the CFO > > > of the company what to do to protect herself. He was > > > a serial abuser, and *everyone* in the company knew > > > it and kept quiet about it. I gave her a tape recorder > > > and told her to record his next demands to "Stay late > > > and work" (meaning "Stay and suck my cock"), and she > > > did it. The CFO got fired, the resulting lawsuit cost > > > the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I > > > got fired for having suggested it. I considered my > > > actions a success. > > > > > > Power -- real or only perceived -- comes with > > > RESPONSIBILITY. You just don't abuse that responsi- > > > bility, and abuse those you're responsible TO. Don't > > > you DARE try to make excuses for Hagelin or Bevan > > > or any of the others taking advantage of their > > > perceived positions of power to fuck women who > > > wouldn't have given them a second look if they > > > didn't hold those positions of power. Naive or > > > not, they didn't deserve to be treated the way > > > they were treated. > > > > > > > --- Michael Jackson <mjackson74@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Given the behavior of leaders of the Movement through the years, it > > > > > is legitimate to ask questions when behavior begins to manifest. It > > > > > has been this way with spiritual movements for decades. People begin > > > > > to misbehave and their disciples refuse to believe it, and the gurus > > > > > and their chief sycophants deny it. Happened with Muktananda, Amrit > > > > > Desai, Kriyananda - when I met J. Donald Walters, I would never have > > > > > thought of him as a sexual user, but damned if he didn't turn out to > > > > > be so - that's why he fled to Italy and stayed there till he died. > > > > > > > > > > Hagelin is one of the main guys the TMO and Lynch use to promote TM > > > > > to whomever they think will bite - if he has mis-used his position as > > > > > a faculty member to prey on his female students, the truth needs to > > > > > be known. Since Edg had mentioned it, I wondered what the facts are. > > > > > All legitimate questions and inquiry. The only problem is that some > > > > > people who want to believe TM and its leaders are pure as the driven > > > > > snow can't stand the light of truth to be shined on TM and its > > > > > honchos. Hagelin's behavior if true needs to be made public so the > > > > > people Hagelin pitches TM and his nonsense physics theories to know > > > > > how credible he is - after all, TM supposedly makes all things better > > > > > - and that should include behavior for those in positions of > > > > > leadership. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: feste37 <feste37@> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:23 AM > > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel > > > > > Discussion Ã�'¢â‚¬â€Å" > > > > > John Hagelin, Ph.D., Igor Kufayev, and Mark > > > > > McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a pathetic post. Peddling old gossip, spreading rumors, > > > > > denouncing others for alleged immorality. If you can't do better than > > > > > this, Duveyoung, I suggest you STFU. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Duveyoung <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I "know" only from gossip, but the gossip was a constant patter of > > > > > > "tidbits." I saw him at dinner ONCE with a married lady, but that > > > > > > could have been innocent.......yeah, right, sure...... Small town > > > > > > with only about three restaurants to "get fancy dancy" and of > > > > > > course he was seen around town a lot. I, with four kids at MSAE > > > > > > had all kinds of pot lucks etc. to hob nob enough to catch the > > > > > > gossip. Of course, EVEN ONCE, would be enough for my "Lutheranism > > > > > > patterns amplified by my TM shame-on-you patterns" to glom onto and > > > > > > bookmark the anecdotes. Same deal with Bevan, and I personally saw > > > > > > Larry Domesh indulging in lust sitting a mere 20 feet from > > > > > > Maharishi as he lectured to a private group! Yup, sex is a > > > > > > powerful mind twister, and, hey, the movement never gave us > > > > > > help-one to meet those challenges, so it's not like we can throw > > > > > > the book at these guys for moral-criminality, but yeah, I do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: The Karina Hotel fire was caused by a guy who started his > > > > > > girl friend's room on fire due to her "cheating" on him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Careful out there on the long rounding courses, kiddies, people be > > > > > > destressing! > > > > > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Michael Jackson <mjackson74@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard from time to time about Hagelin's womanizing but > > > > > > > nothing very specific - how do you know all this stuff or has it > > > > > > > just been kind of circulating around and not specific? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Duveyoung <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:47 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: BatGap Panel Discussion > > > > > > > Ã�'¢â‚¬â€Å" John Hagelin, Ph.D., > > > > > > > Igor Kufayev, and Mark McCooey. Moderated by Rick Archer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Jason" <jedi_spock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It takes two to tangle. You seem to imply that he was > > > > > > > > dragging them to the cave with a stone club in hand. > > > > > > > > Looks like TM didn't do any good to those women either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can assign 50% of the blame on the married women, cuz, > > > > > > > hey, free will and all that, but..... nope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The equation changes when one of the partners has so much to > > > > > > > offer to the (spiritually, financially, socially) impoverished > > > > > > > other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He took advantage. He leveraged. He must be held to the same > > > > > > > standard we held Maharishi about his sexcapades. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hagelin never not once ever never once ever said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Hey, babe, nice just meeting you, a minion, and me, a royal > > > > > > > scion, and I know you're married, and it's a sin to fuck me, but, > > > > > > > hey, let's just put all that aside and not dwell on the YEARS AND > > > > > > > YEARS OF DAMAGE it would do to your husband and your kids if they > > > > > > > find out." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hagelin never asked like that, right, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE > > > > > > > EXPECTED FROM THEM, cuz, HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING. And he knew > > > > > > > he was ABSOLUTELY HARMING these women -- "harming" means > > > > > > > "alluring women to change their lives so dramatically and so > > > > > > > covertly that it was certain that when the affairs were revealed, > > > > > > > all the lying and disloyalty would not be easily dealt with -- > > > > > > > without YEARS of professional help for all concerned." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is fucking harmful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At least Dr. Bloomfield drugged his women and didn't try to > > > > > > > brainwash them into breaking the trust enjoyed with virtually > > > > > > > everyone in their social circle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, sure, it MIGHT evolve some folks who would rise to the > > > > > > > challenges of facing ones personal integrity being shitcanned > > > > > > > after one has torn ones life up like a bad parking ticket, yep, > > > > > > > could be, but on average, every woman who ever fucked Hagelin had > > > > > > > to face themselves in perhaps the harshest light they've ever had > > > > > > > shone upon them. And it wouldn't be pretty what they saw in the > > > > > > > mirror. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each woman, on her death bed, gets to say: "I fucked Hagelin and > > > > > > > ruined my marriage and my kids hate me to this day for what I did > > > > > > > to their father when I could have just gone to a marriage > > > > > > > counselor or something, or I could have at least faced their > > > > > > > father forthrightly about the marital dissonance and just said, > > > > > > > 'I'm ending it, but at least I'm being honest and not sneaking > > > > > > > behind your back and cuckolding you and doing all the things that > > > > > > > incur rage in others who are blinded by their trust and loyalty > > > > > > > towards the cheating partner and who will have no clue until it's > > > > > > > revealed to them as if a bomb going off.'" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who wants to say that? Hagelin made every woman NOT CONSIDER > > > > > > > THAT. He gave them, what?, promises of, what? Don't even try to > > > > > > > tell me all the women were simply randy and Hagelin was a hunk. > > > > > > > Women don't go for that. They might be horny, but it is only cuz > > > > > > > they want the whole man's wherewithal -- not just his dick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He leveraged by promising who knows what. That is not saintly. > > > > > > > That is not honest. That is fucking evil. And TM didn't do a > > > > > > > THING TO CHANGE IT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
