--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > <snip> > > But if you're not clueless, perhaps you could explain > > to me what you saw in that film that you felt conveyed > > a spiritual lesson of value. For me, it was sadly a > > two-hour dissertation on sadism, and an attempt to > > make viewers feel something for Christ by portraying > > in excruciating detail all the suffering that the > > filmmaker -- not being enlightened -- could image an > > enlightened being going through. > > > > I *understand* that many people actually believe that > > Christ's suffering somehow magically paid for *their* > > sins. But IMO this particular filmmaker must imagine > > some pretty icky sins to feel that what he put onscreen > > was what Christ had to go through to pay for his. > > To play, er, devil's advocate (and I haven't seen the > film, I'm just commenting on what you said in light > of what I've heard and read), I wonder if you haven't > inadvertently put your finger right on it. > > It seems to me that Christianity has two aspects, one > being Jesus's teaching about how to treat others, and > the other how one should view one's relationship to > God. The latter is really Paul's teaching rather than > that of Jesus. > > I've always thought Paul's teaching was psychologically > brilliant, in that it mandates letting go of the > perception that one's inability to be perfect is a > barrier between oneself and God: If God has forgiven > you via the suffering of his own purported son, who > are you not to forgive yourself? > > From what I've heard and read of "born-again"-type > experiences, they frequently involve a sense of > enormous *relief* at being able to drop one's guilt > for not being perfect, and a consequent sense of > liberation: I'm not OK, and that's OK. (Not that one > now has permission to sin, not that one isn't still > responsible for one's past sins, but that those past > sins don't get between oneself and God.) > > This sense of liberation seems to enable many people > to get a fresh start. > > But there are still some who may not get it on a gut > level, or the experience of liberation may not last. > They're unable to fully believe it. > > So I'd speculate that perhaps the purpose of the film > is to renew and reinforce the belief that they've been > forgiven, in exactly the way you just suggested--no > matter *how* awful your sins, Jesus's suffering was > worse. There's no way you can continue to think your > sins weren't paid for when you see how horribly he > suffered.
Nice post. Nice insights. That might actually be it. > I'd also guess the film reflects the thought > processes that Mel Gibson himself has found helpful > in his attempt to overcome his own guilt and accept > that his sins have been paid for. It's not so much > a matter of one's sins being particularly icky, but > rather portraying Jesus's suffering as *so* extreme > that one's sins seem trivial by comparison. That's probably true, too. The fascinating thing is, Christ's suffering wasn't that unique, even in the realm of spiritual teachers. Histor- ically, the world is not always kind to teachers who rock the S.S. Status Quo with radical ideas like liberation. Buddhist teachers and saints have been murdered and tortured, as have their counterparts in the Hindu world. Sufi masters who managed to rock the boat a bit too much have been boiled alive. The part I have trouble with in focusing on the crucifiction and on Christ's suffering is that by elevating and glorifying it as The Ultimate Suffering, in a way you're making a mockery of the suffering of the thousands of other people who were crucified by the Romans. Were they not treated pretty much the way Christ was in Mel's movie? Was their suffering somehow less? For me, not being a Christian, I find inspiration in the nobility of Christ's sacrifice, just on the level of *teaching*. He was willing to be put to death, rather than stop teaching people. That's enough for me. That inspires and uplifts me. I don't have to believe that his death mitigated all my karmas. > Conceptually, it sure doesn't ring my chimes, and I > serioiusly doubt it would do anything for me if I > actually saw the film. The idea that a loving God > would even dream of holding your sins against you > makes no sense to me at all, let alone that God > would sacrifice his son to wipe the slate clean, > etc., etc. > > But apparently watching the film has been a deeply > spiritual experience for many. And possibly for me as well. I reacted to it. It pushed my buttons. For that reason alone I will see it again. I do that with all films that push my buttons. I feel like I have to see them again to figure out why it pushed my button (as a kind of spiritual exercise) and how the director did it (as a kind of creative exercise). I actually look forward to watching it again, in a more relaxed environment than Paris. > The dynamic I > outlined above is the only way I can understand how > that could possibly be the case, given the mindset > that God must somehow be reconciled to sinners. > > > I am *not* averse to onscreen violence. That's not > > the issue. The issue is that this film spent at least > > 120 of its 127 minutes dealing with Christ's supposed > > suffering and only 7 minutes dealing with his teachings. > > If that's not missing the point, what is? > > But perhaps it's really dealing with *Paul's* teaching, > about Jesus's suffering having been redemptive. Perhaps > for some it's necessary to get *that* teaching before > they can be truly open to Jesus's teaching about how > to treat others. It's possible. Are you suggesting that the guilt that they feel over their own thoughts and actions is so strong that they have to get past it by believing in the redemption of Christ before they can be open to being nicer people? That's an interesting idea, one I shall have to ponder. > (Although, given the behavior of many Christians, even > that isn't enough.) Amen. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
