One can conceive of gradients in spectrum of cults and sects. Paired data-points on Cartesian axis: Like on one scale have it run from a low end of immoral-sociopathic-NPDisordered then to highly transformative moral and spiritual at the top of that scale. That could work for sorting individuals or movement organizations. On the other, 2nd axis have a scale of types of teachers or their organizations that run from just authors or lecturers, to sadhus, swamis, gurus, sat gurus, jagad gurus, saints and avatars at the top end. X-Y axis. Draw it and then place your person organization cult or sect vs the type of teacher or saint. . as a dot placed on the graph. Knapp for instance, being in the news again here on FFL may appear to be down at the low of each scale on the graph. That placement can change according to time and event horizon too. Even can work to plot dynamic life-cycle of someone's spiritual teaching or organization through time. Play with it. -Buck
DoctorDA writes: As far as the long time habit, and progression, of expanding one's awareness, through meditation, it has nothing to do with achieving signposts, or escaping this world, or acting like either an asshole or a saint. It is simply a means of discovering the full range of human experience, and integrating it. No robes or sexual exploitation, required. Graphing Data-pairs, Charismatics and Spiritual movements http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/370787 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/370787 As Charisma: "Weber, in an oft quoted passage, defined charisma as a certain quality of an individual personality, by virtue of which [s/]he is set apart from ordinary [people] and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These are such as are not accessible to the ordinary person, but are regarded as of divine origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader." 1 Okay, no charismatic leader no cult. It is just an organization. So by more scholarly definition evidently your feelings around the TM movement is that TM never quite rose up to be a cult, but was/is a sect. No charismatic leader, no cult. It evidently was a movement that you were part of, -Buck See FFL Post 370565 for a discussion of the context of charisma, cults and sects: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/370565 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/370565 salyavin808 writes: As far as I'm concerned it never had a charismatic leader. Marshy's woolly, illogical and ignorant lecturing style always left me cold. Corporation is a good word for it though. As it sells both a product and a belief system that makes that product seem a lot more valuable than it actually is. Marshy's genius is the lectures he gave that conned everyone into thinking all the unified field, sci, land of the ved bollocks was an ultimate truth for all mankind and that he was its natural voice. awoelflebater writes: I'd have to agree with you about MMY not being the most riveting of speakers. He was a snooze for me but he certainly, at least, seemed like a pleasant enough guy but hardly profound, hardly magnetic and definitely not charismatic. TM, more accurately now is a [religious spiritual] sect in its post-charismatic leader phase. As an organizational structure it is a corporation. Fairly, TM is no longer a cult with a charismatic leader. -Buck salyavin808 writes: Potayto, potahto. No, most of what you are offering as definition technically is about sects. Cults form around charismatic persons. Sects form out of specialness, exception or differentiation as in different denominations of protestantism or catholicism or denominations or types of meditation. Those are sects. Sects are around fragmentation and cults are around persons as charismatics. For instance, If someone really 'charismatic', like earlier defined by Weber, like a Robin were to show up in Fairfield, Iowa and take off a bunch of meditators as his followers by force and power of personality then we're talking cult, as a sect. That is different than the different sects of people out teaching meditations and some others out there teaching other things they've learned. -Buck in the Dome Salyavin808 writes: You don't need any leader to be a cult. All you need is a belief system that sets you apart from the norm. Om, policy and movement within TM now is based much more on science, merit and efficacy than old ways promoted around Totakacharya-like devotion, fealty and ideology. But that old movement way of fealty test and ideology test is fast dying away of a necessity and become cultural memory of a past. Heck TM does not even have a charismatic leader or leadership anymore. WE got administrators. It is kind of hard to have a cult without a charismatic leader that you could point to. That is defining of cults. Please see FFL post# 370565 . No, people become meditators and then freely participating in this organization because they like meditation and appreciate all the good that the transcendent meditative state provides everyone individually and collectively. Our meditating organization is here to facilitate that good. That facilitating in our case now is the work of good in progress by our new incorporation as meditators. Our corporation as it always has been is certainly about affecting a positive revolutionary radical change in all of society for everybody. Most of us in TM are pretty clear about that. Are you with us or against us in this? -U.S. Buck in the Dome MJ, See Weber's comments on 'cult' in Melton's Intro to The Postcharismatic Fate of New Religious Movements: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/370565 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/370565 MJ, Your thesis around TM being a 'cult' has a problem in that we in TM no longer have a charismatic leader of TM. We are either administrators or meditators in TM and anyone in TM is enfranchised by a little of both under Maharishi's Absolute Theories of Management and Government. You clearly are full of your own personal BS and have your ax grinding about something. I feels a sorrow for thee in thy lack of peace around this. -Buck “Which would you rather experience: living the paradox or understanding it to your satisfaction?” Not either position is mutually exclusive, or that there is a third possibility of both." MJ writes: You need to read up on what cults actually are before you make such statements. Nope, not a cult. TM now as a corporation obviously is not a cult any more than any modern productive working corporation of employees is a 'cult'. TM and meditators as a community now are just like airline corporation employee pilots of an airline company. And they might go fly for their work wearing funny looking hats and coats too where they would go to work and pilot an airliner. And those lesser employees too as part of the corporate team who organize a flight as a gate agent or direct people as flight attendants or load luggage or maintain the corporation equipment. TM is as very modern as is any corporation in 'cult' -ure, as Maharishi himself particularly set that in motion now. TM now is not hardly as bad as you portray it. It is rapidly becoming more modern and scientific as it is of vedic origin in corporation all the time. And we don't hardly see the gold hats and robes around much outside of a small circle deep inside at the top. If there is a cult it is possibly at that level to see but you can see a lot of them avoiding the caps and robes when they can. -Buck MJwrites:You are right Buck, the TMO IS different now - it is much more of a cult than it was when I started in 1974. If you can look at these idiots wearing robes and gold crowns who practice and follow every Hindu religious observance and holiday and not see it as a cult, then you have been snorting too much sheep dip. Shame on you MHJ. Om, First-Class Bull-Manure you Spread Wide and Spread Thick here, MHJ. This TM now is not a “cult” no more as much as you might like to declare that it is. As we used to explain in the olde days, “Om no, TM is not a 'cult' like christian cults or the people's-temple may be; TM is way too dis-organized to be that. . It's about meditation and the evident scientific spiritual value of meditation”. MJ, there is something malevolent in what you do to something that is so good in itself as what is simply transcending meditation. In this new corporate-post-charismantic-era, Transcendental Meditation is plainly now different. Your commentary is clearly out of date. I appreciate that it takes a long time for the current news to travel to the hollers and plantations of South Carolina but clearly you are out of it. -Buck in the Dome mjackson74 writes: I shall begin an immediate campaign to have it removed from Whole Goods (sic) so they don't support cults. The Transcendental Meditative State of Consciousness is Found Within Restful ALERTNESS. Drink: Vedic Coffee to Support Restful ALERTNESS! http://vediccoffee.com/ http://vediccoffee.com/ mjackson74 writes: I shall begin an immediate campaign to have it removed from Whole Goods so they don't support cults. Buck Writes: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Drink Vedic Coffee and Support Peace To: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Date: Friday, February 14, 2014, 11:52 PM The Transcendental Meditative State of Consciousness is Found Within Restful ALERTNESS. Drink: Vedic Coffee to Support Restful ALERTNESS! http://vediccoffee.com/ http://vediccoffee.com/ Om O .
