Yifuxero, mySelf as an old and conservative experienced meditator I do appreciate your rendition here of spiritual history that delineates there at the Cathers. Same old and same old that we see even here on FFL of the ontology of the experiential Mystics versus spiritually ignorant materialists and the cycles of generational Spiritual Knowledge revived and Knowledge lost again to the small ego of ignorance and materialism. Graphing the revival of transcendentalism of spiritual experience of the Unified Field through this history makes for a profound reading of historic time-line. Have a really nice day in meditation today. After morning meditation I am to the Lyric in Chicago for some opera with a van-load of conservative meditators today, -Buck
yifuxero writes: For diehard TM TB, sorry, but you're way off the mark when stating (like Deepak Chopra), that the "True" version of Christianity is basically the "Essence" or Gnostic version. That is, that the "true" teachings of Jesus were essentially Gnostic (as in the Gospel of Thomas); but simply squashed out of existence with the final victory of the Papacy over any smidgeon of Gnosticism with the total defeat of the Cathars. ... Another cheap and dishonest trick of the MUM people and TM TB in general is cherry-picking certain statements from the Bible and simultaneously throwing out the offsetting commentaries. For example, the statement attributed to Jesus "I and my Father are One"....from the MUM and Chopra pov is that the "One" is to be equated with MMY's "Unity". But as the Bible clearly states after giving that verse, the "Oneness" is clearly defined as being one in INTENT, (to follow the Commandments, etc), not (as Judy pointed out); an ONTOLOGICAL UNION, with Jesus, which was regarded as heretical by some of the early Church "Fathers". .... However, as the centuries rolled by beginning with the Monastic "Fathers of the Desert", there would be no way to experientially separate the traditional RC "Union'" with Ontological Union, and thus: the experiencer might find some conflict with the Papacy and being subject to persecution. Certainly in Islam. In the latter, saying that one is "ONE" with God would result in the worst of tortures. (One Sufi was skinned alive for saying that). ...But as one progresses on the Spiritual journey, (so the autobiographies say - Cf. for example that of St. John of the Cross, a frequent levitator); the interface between dualistic devotion to Jesus and one's own realization of Self becomes all-encompassing and increasingly Transcendent in the Ontological sense. But examples of such Saints seem to be rare in my assessment. (offhand, I'd say that one might find more examples of genuine inclusion (both Essense - what one "IS", along with dualistic devotion to Jesus), than in RC. ... In fact, there is no provision WHATSOEVER modern (post Thomas Aquinas) RC teachings for Self-Realization (Gnosis), along with devotion in any form. However, if you read the works of St. John of the Cross, you'll see that indeed; some rare Saints accomplished the goal of ecstatic devotion to Jesus along with (perhaps in spite of their "efforts", realizing the Self - perhaps MMY's "Unity". ... Finally, the term "Union" in RC has evolved into a state recorded in the statements of the RC Saints as a relative type of "union", but not Ontological (refering to what MMY calls "Being"). ...Sorry MZ (RWC)...but St. Thomas Aquinas attempted to theologically bridge the gap between dualistic devotion to Jesus AND Aristotle's (BEING-IN-ITSELF), but failed to do so since in the ensuing centuries, his version of Catholicism as (by now); been rejected in the official teachings. The bottom line: from the mouth of the previous Pope: there is no interface in any way, shape, or form between the official teachings of RC and the doctrine of ontological Essence. Thus, the Buddhist/Hindu concepts, along with Gnosticsm in general; are heretical and cannot be reconciled doctrinally with RC. ... Unfortunately, various isolated mystics throughout history such as St. John of the Cross and (probably) may Orthodox Saints); have given us records of their experiences describing a genuine "Union" of the Ontological type AND the dualistic devotion to Jesus. As described by St. John of the Cross, a point of purification (again in his Catholic sense); comes when the dualistic aspect is Transcended in genuine ontological Union, but not implying that devotion to Jesus is "given up". Apparently, the dualistic part is simply transcended.. ...Recall that Ramana Maharshi was still devoted to "Arunachala Shiva" even after he realized the Self. But such a merging of the Self in an all encompassing state along with dualistic devotion is something I can only speculate on after reading the testimonies of the great Saints, from East and West. (but ymmv). ... Finally, the term "Ecstasy" in RC theology refers to a state in which the experiencer to outward appearances appears unconscious or even dead, while the "Soul" (finer body) travels into Heaven or Purgatory to rescue the Souls there. In many cases, the term "Ecstasy" may be inclusive of bilocation to distant places and to a common property: physical levitation. The Ecstatic experiences of St. Catharine of Genoa included travels to Purgatory to assist the Souls there in getting out of that domain and into the Christian Heaven.. http://www.helpersoftheholysouls.com/ourpatron_plus/purgatory_saints/StCatharineOfGenoa.htm http://www.helpersoftheholysouls.com/ourpatron_plus/purgatory_saints/StCatharineOfGenoa.htm . ...
