---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote :
you shot your erudite arguments all to hell by saying there were no grandiose claims - that's all TM is, is grandiose claims - spin don't have shit to do with it. marshy was a liar, a con artist, a Hindu fanatic and very superstitious. Michael, my comments were about the introductory lecture. If you maintain that it contains grandiose claims, why don't you produce some evidence of that. It's been a long time since I gave one, but it was all pretty basic. Probably you can't find any, and then your usual tactic is to go off point and find some other issue to rail against. I believe the FFL term for that is "changing the context". . Like "okay, maybe the introductory lecture doesn't make grandiose claims,but Maharishi was still a blah, blah, blah" The inability to say on point shows a real weakness in debating an issue. Definitely points off for that. wish to declare your usual If you wanna argue superstition, try telling Turq that he didn't see M flee a room just because chairs were upended. So what if he was superstitious, and acted irrationally sometimes. You have a poor understanding of what the state of enlightenment is. People have idiosyncrasies before enlightenment, and idiosyncrasies after enlightenment. I am not speaking from experience, just from observation. And of course that is only my opinion. But you are so hell bent on finding fault wherever you look wr to TM, that often whatever good points you make are clouded by your animus towards the organization. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... <steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 9:10 PM Michael, with all due respect, you are not an expert on Hinduism, or even superstitious Hinduism for that matter. I think we saw that last week. So you have an opinion on the relationship of Soma and the Vedic Gods, but it is just your interpretation, unless you claim to be able to decipher the clear meaning of the Vedic verses. You probably don't know what chemicals a refined nervous system may create, and if they have any effect on ones environment, or the elements of nature, if there is such a thing. So, you may choose to spin Maharishi's comments in anyway you choose, but the case you are making seems rather weak to me. The introductory lecture for TM discusses benefits in four areas, if I'm not mistaken. There is a reference to the tradition that it comes from. But I don't think, in fact I know, there are no grandiose claims being made. I think sometimes your points are on target, but oftentimes not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : Its the ninth mandala actually, but it was never phrased so that I remember - also it is significant that M who always claimed publicly to offer a technique that is non-religious to covertly tell everyone inthe room point blank that the purpose of meditation is to refine the body so it produces soma so Indra and the other gods can have lunch on your nickle and they will give you rewards as a result. This is not just Hinduism but superstitious Hinduism. If what he was teaching in this tape was legit, he would never had had the tapes recalled. As I believe the Turq said not long ago, if TM was a great as they claim it is, they wouldn't have to lie to sell it. I am also eager to hear from any other teachers who post here who have seen the tape and what they thought of it at the time and what they think of it now, or remember when the word came down to give 'em back to the Movement. I think its a very interesting bit of Movement history. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sundur@... <steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 11:41 AM Am I missing something, because isn't that what the 10th mandala is about in just about every verse. So even though it's been some 20 plus years since I listened to it, that's my recollection. Evidently that is something the Vedas concern themselves with. Do you consider this revelation? I guess you do. Are you are trying to paint it as some strange ritual where people splay themselves out and cry, "Indra, eat me, eat me!" If so, I must have missed that. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : I just found it interesting - as I said I think, somehow this particular document had escaped my attention. I was told during the sidhi prep courses that we produce soma in the stomach and only if we have soma being produced can we have experiences of "higher" states of consciousness. That's what the governors who taught the courses told us and those would be Greg Palma, Walter Gibbons and Paul Potter (for those here who love to have sources quoted). But nothing was ever said about the gods eating it and giving us blessings as a result. I had no idea such a tape existed and I wanted to hear from the TM teachers here to see if they had seen the tape and what they thought of it at the time they saw it. That's all. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 4/3/14, steve.sundur@... <steve.sundur@...> wrote: Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Soma and the Gods To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, April 3, 2014, 3:49 AM You know Michael, I wish I knew more about Soma, about the Vedas, about the Vedic Gods. But I don't. There are some who think it is all a bunch of jibberish. I think Barry may be in this camp, and I hope I am not misrepresenting him. But I do generally have respect for ancient traditions. And I think most traditions have a more superficial aspect and a deeper, hidden aspect. I think the teachings of Jesus show this as well. What you relate about Maharishi's comments about Soma being produced in the gut, and God's feasting on it, doesn't really strike me as that strange. I think it's probably standard stuff in some schools of Hinduism. But do you really think they needed this to try to make a case of Hindu roots for TM? I mean the Puja could probably make that case. And that is hardly hidden. And I guess you could parse whether the Mantras have meaning or meaningless, but for whatever reason, and in some way, the technique has worked for many people, and still works for people who are just now learning it. And I believe at some point early in the movement it was discussed whether to bring it out as a religious practice, or a scientific one. Obviously the scientific approach won out. But of course the Hindu, or religious overtones are there. On the other hand, so what. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mjackson74@...> wrote : Somehow in my looking at TM, I have always missed this - any of you guys ever see this tape? If so what did you think of it? "Soma and the Gods" On the next Web page begins the transcription of "Soma and the Gods" taken from testimony in the Kropinski trial. This videotape is one of a handful that have become infamous in the TM movement because of their secrecy: It is only shown to TM teachers on the heavily regimented Teacher Training Course (TTC). For many years copies of this tape were not even allowed to enter the continental US. For good reason! Much like the Church of Scientology's OT materials, "Soma and the Gods" lays out the Maharishi's freakish theology in a way that the public is not deemed "ready" for by the Maharishi and the movement. According to participants in the Kropinski trial, this tape -- along with the entire TTC catalog -- appeared mysteriously on someone's doorstep one day. Since then the tape has been used by plaintiffs in court cases to prove that the TM movement had a religious, specifically Hindu, agenda -- largely because it's one of the few times the Maharishi was captured on tape talking about worshipping the Vedic Gods. (Of course today, the TM movement sells Hindu sacrifices, yagyas or yajnas, to Ganesh, Lakshmi, and other Gods for thousands of dollars without batting an eye!) But the true significance of "Soma and the Gods" is much larger. And the theology that the Maharishi espouses is not Hinduism. It is much more idiosyncratic -- and frankly bizarre. In a nutshell, the Maharishi describes a sort of parasitic relationship between TMers and the Vedic Gods. TMers produce the magical chemical Soma in their gut -- but it isn't something they can use directly. The Vedic Gods, principally Indra, descend from Heaven and feed on the Soma in the TMers' belly. In return for this primitive relationship, the Gods grant all manner of boons. TMers become successful, happy, prosperous, and develop supernormal abilities. Unbeknownst to non-TM teachers, the entire TM program can be understood through this simple model. We practice yogic asanas and pranayama to clear the channels through which Soma will flow. We repeat the name of our own personal "Ishta" (God) to summon Him or Her. Advanced TMers practice the sidhis to "stir" the Soma and further clear channels. We read verses from the Ninth Mandala that literally invite the Gods by name to feast on the Soma in our belly: "Flow, Soma, in a most sweet and exhilirating stream, effused for Indra to drink.... Be the lavish giver of wealth, most bounteous, the destroyer of enemies, bestow on us the riches of the affluent." And we take Ayurvedic potions and pills believing we will produce "extra" or "more refined" soma. An anecdote from a former Maharishi International University (MIU/MUM) professor: When I was on MIU faculty, there was a special videotape that only faculty were privy to. It was the Ninth Mandala, chanted in the original Sanskrit. Sitting with eyes closed, listening to it was considered a great privilege and was highly secret. On my Governor Training Course, after we had rounded and rounded and rounded for three months, MMY [the Maharishi] finally called to answer our questions. I asked what we should expect from endlessly reading the Ninth Mandala of the Rig Veda and I never forgot his reply: "It will become a living reality." To my knowledge, this fairly frightening vision is the Maharishi's alone. The Rig and Sama Vedas themselves describe the process of making a beverage, soma, by grinding and brewing a certain medicinal plant -- or alternatively by feeding a plant to a cow and then imbibing either its milk or urine. James Allegro speculated some years back that soma was actually the hallucinogenic mushroom amanita muscara, a prevalent inebriator among all Aryan cultures. Perhaps. But even in modern day India, there are hotris who perform the Soma sacrifice using the humble soma plant, and imbibing the juice. Nowhere in all of Vedic literature have we found a single reference to soma as a substance produced in the human stomach and fed upon by Gods. Except this product of the Maharishi's imagination. Many sources from the inner circles of the TM movement have already reported on the Maharishi's preoccupation with the influence of other people's thoughts (stress), purity of food (genetic engineering), and apparent preoccupation with "enemies" (re: the CIA and AMA). The unforgettable image of ravening Gods jostling each other to feed at the stomachs of TMers around the world to get their share of the mythical Soma seems a conclusive indication that TM theology may simply be the by-product delusion of the Maharishi's seriously distrubed mind.
