Hell, haven't you ever seen the old Andy Griffith episode where mean Elly Walker refuses to give Emma Watson her sugar pills cuz she has no prescription? Proves the placebo effect is real! And that watching re-runs of Andy and Barney are equally beneficial if not more so than an equal time spent doing TMSP. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 4/10/14, TurquoiseBee <[email protected]> wrote:
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect? To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, April 10, 2014, 12:32 PM From: Share Long <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Are the TM-Sidhis nothing but Placebo Effect? turq, research and my own experience indicates that field independence develops in TMers. That alone would decrease and or prevent any alleged placebo effect and strengthen a person's ability to "divorce" from it. I think this is one of the greatest benefits of TM. It liberates. Even from itself. Share, with all due respect, I think you're parroting something you were told, especially the term "field independence," which I doubt you can define. Also, no one can "divorce themselves" from the placebo effect -- many studies have shown that it affects people equally, no matter what their intelligence or level of scientific training. If the suggestion is there to experience something, a certain percentage of people are *going* to experience it....it's as simple as that. Plus I doubt than a placebo effect, even if it occurred in the beginning, can last for decades! Especially if a person has very little contact with the TMO. I have written well over a hundred scientific and medical articles since returning to Leiden from Paris. The placebo effect is a very big part of most of them. Its affects can last a lifetime, much less for decades. People have reported "benefits" for years after paying for an expensive cure that was later proven to be pure quackery and continued to report those "benefits" even after seeing the research and articles that revealed the doctor a quack. Interestingly, in such cases there is a direct correlation between how much they *paid* for the "cure" and how much "benefit" they believe it provided, and how long they continue to believe it. Lastly, again going by my own experience, I'd say that the language of the sutra doesn't matter as a person's awareness settles into finer levels of existence. Define "finer levels of existence," such that a scientist would recognize what you are talking about. I'll wait. I notice that you didn't propose any explanation for how or why the TM-Sidhis might work, only that you believe based on your personal experience that they do. The patients clinging to quack cures believe that they worked, too. Are you really trying to say that the only thing that defines for you whether something "works" is whether you believe it does? On Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:17 AM, TurquoiseBee <[email protected]> wrote: I think one can make a case that they are. Here, I'll start... First, let's look at the basic TM technique, which uses Sanskrit mantras described by the TMO as "meaningless sounds" (which are really the names or "calling cards" of Hindu gods and goddesses, as anyone who can read books from India would know) as a mechanism for meditation. You *could* make a case that there is something "special" about these mantras, some sonic quality that actually facilitates meditation, because of course they have no meaning to most of the people who think them. But that's not true for the TM-Sidhis. As anyone who has ever learned them knows (but gets really, really uptight when someone like myself points out), what you paid thousands of dollars for (a good argument for the Placebo Effect in itself) were a number of *English language phrases* straight from a translation of the Yoga Sutras, all of which very *definitely* have meaning. After a period of TM meditation, the "TM Sidha" is instructed to think them -- *in English* (or whatever modern language they were taught the TM-Sidhis in) in a particular way, and then wait for the effects. I believe that a strong case can be made for Placebo Effect-like *expectation* in all of this, for three reasons. First, the TM-Sidhis were initially marketed *as a way of achieving and mastering all of the "siddhis" these phrases describe*. The original (first few years) "intro lectures" about the TM-Sidhi program were full of promises that you would learn to levitate and be able to perform other siddhis. Tales were told by people marketing and selling the new (and rather expensive) courses of people having been seen levitating, or walking through walls, or demonstrating invisibility. All of these tales were nothing more than urban legends, of course, because none of this had ever happened. But still, an *expectation* WAS formed among the people paying their money for the TM-Sidhi course that they'd have experiences like this themselves. Second are the nature of the phrases they're thinking themselves. They *very much* have meaning, and you'd have to be a complete idiot not to realize that when you're sitting there thinking them that you're "supposed" to experience what they describe. For example, is there any question that when you're sitting there thinking "Friendliness" that you're supposed to feel more friendly? Or that when you're sitting there thinking "Strength of an elephant" you're supposed to feel stronger? Or that when you're thinking "Relationship of body and akasha - lightness of cotton fiber" you're supposed to lift up into the air as if you were actually lighter yourself? OF COURSE this is a form of suggestion, and I think that combined with the fact that the people thinking this last "sutra" had paid thousands of dollars for the privilege, one can make a strong case that any "bouncing" that follows (caused by unconscious or only partly conscious physical effort) can be attributed to nothing but the Placebo Effect. Third is the aspect of "reinforcement" that one receives in the form of praise for claiming to have *had* the experience of these phrases you're thinking. As reported here on FFL, in recent courses at MUM the participants are actually questioned after each session as to the "depth" or "profundity" of their "experiences." For each of the sutras (meaningful phrases), they are expected to raise their hands if they had a "Number 1" experience of them, a "Number 2" experience of them, or a "Number 3" experience of them. Naturally, those who claim to have had Number 1 experiences are perceived as "better," and praised, further reinforcing the Placebo Effect. So I think it's *very* possible to describe the reported effects of the TM-Sidhis as "nothing but Placebo Effect." The onus to prove or suggest otherwise falls on those who claim otherwise, and we'll wait patiently for you to do so. Please explain to us the "magic" or "Woo Woo" that enables thinking *English language phrases* to create the claimed effects of the TM-Sidhis. Please explain to us how you somehow divorce yourself from *expectation* when thinking these very meaningful phrases, and thus are not deceiving yourself into believing that they are producing an actual effect. Please explain how you are *not* affected by being regarded as somehow "special" merely for claiming that you've had "profound experiences" THAT YOU WERE TOLD TO EXPECT, and how that cannot be attributed to the Placebo Effect. We'll wait...
