From: "anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
Dawkins is not undecided. He says he is 6.9 out of 7 that god does not
exist. An agnostic is undecided at 50/50 percent.
I don't understand how anyone can even be *interested* in defining where they
stand on an issue that can never be decided. There simply cannot possibly BE a
bigger waste of time IMO.
Awake or dreaming, as Anartaxius suggests below, what could possibly be the
supposed *benefit* of knowing whether there was a God or not? The only people I
can imagine this imagined "knowing" having a value for is people who were
brought up being programmed to believe that there was a God and that He would
do terrible things to them in the afterlife if they didn't believe in Him.
Those kinds of people might IMO find a kind of relief from their ever-present
fear of being savaged in the afterlife by a vengeful God by believing that one
exists and that it actually *matters* to Him what they believe about Him.
The only other reason I can think of for believing in a God is if one imagines
Him/Her/It to be that lowest common denominator of most God beliefs -- the
all-powerful invisible man in the sky. That is, someone/something who/that can
actually intervene in events back on Earth to make them turn out "better" or
"differently" for those who pray to this God (or commission Maharishi™ yagyas
for Him) so that He will make *exceptions* to his already-in-place Laws Of
Nature, just for them.
This is the one I really don't get. How can anyone believe that the "bad
things" that are happening to them that they pray to God (or try to bribe Him
with expensive yagyas) to change are *NOT* part of "God's Plan?" By praying to
change things, aren't they in essence saying, "Hey God...I appreciate Your
efforts and everything, but really your Plan is all fucked up because I'm not
rich and I want to be. Fix that, will you!" :-)
One question not usually gone into in detail is when a person uses the word
'god', just what are they referring to? The word is common but people have very
different senses at to what that word signifies. What does that sound as
thought conjure up in the mind?
Another question: Is it necessary to know the answer? Why would it be
important? Would knowing the answer (if there is one) make any difference in
the state of the world?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote :
Just remember that Richard Dawkins agenda is to sell you his books and become a
millionaire by proclaiming atheism, when in fact he's actually an agnostic.
So, where does that leave you?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
Caveat 1: this is just about a dream.Caveat 2: any persons mentioned in the
following story, are justtheir dream versions, and not their real counterparts.
Caveat 3: thisstory is just the result of random neuron activity in the
brain.There is no deeper meaning or sense. ;-)
I had a crazy dream the other night. Itwas just a dream, and crazy at that,
have this in mind.In my dreams, I finally decided, that Iwould submit to the
atheist world-view, being finally tired ofdefending a personal god, I thought
to find a final and cleanresolution. But in order to become an atheist, and not
onlyan-atheist-by-self-proclamation, I had to visit a council, where Ihad to
submit my views, and which would finally check on all myhidden assumptions, and
if there was still a trace of theism left inme.So I summoned all my courage and
wentto the high-court of atheism, there was a panel of 3 people, sittingbehind
a desk, and, in my dream as it was, I thought the chairman wasRichard Dawkins
himself. To his right, there was his own book, TheGod Delusion, and to his
left, it's ancient ancestor, the book byCharles Darwin himself.
Richard first asked me, if I was surethat I would like to become an atheist
now, an approved and certifiedatheist at that, as he emphasized. I said yes,
this is why I washere. He nodded in agreement. He said, we just like to ask you
a fewquestions, so that you can still think about and check your resolve.I
nodded. So, he continued, you do not believe in any kind of god,not Christian,
not Muslim, not ancient greek or Roman, not Hindu orBuddhist either? I said,
no, no, none of it. He smiled satisfied, somay I ask you, do you still possess
any religious books, you know,like the Bible, or the Koran, or the Bhagavad
Gita, on any media,like paper print, or as e-books? I said, no, I threw it all
away,maybe I had some PDF files somewhere on my computer, or on an oldback-up
disc, but I would check everything, and would get rid of it,as I am really
determined, to become a 100% atheist. Again Dawkinssmiled, and said: we need
people like this, especially in todaysworld, where religious fundamentalism on
the one hand, and pseudospiritual superstitions on the other hand, are on the
rise again.
He then asked, what about new agebooks, channellings, or books by - now he
hesitated a bit, to evenpronounce the name - Deepak Chopra. I said that I had
read some ofhis books, but that, at the time, I didn't recognize them
asreligious. I had thought they were quantum mechanics, at whichmention Dawkins
shuddered. I might still have some in my bookshelf,which I am sure to give a
more thorough look, and I would get rid ofall of it, including any books about
such pseudo scientific subjectsas astrology, tarot, or any other new age
subjects. I was clearlydetermined to become a good atheist, and Dawkins
realized that I washonest in this.
He emphasized that atheists are ofcourse free to read whatever they wanted,
because they are after allthe real free people, but they had made the
experience, that at thebeginning of embarking on a new conviction, old habits
may still setin, and therefore all these measures where just there to help me,
tobecome independent of religious thinking, and strengthen my rationalthoughts,
and actively reject irrationality. So if I was to read anyreligious texts, I
should always read them in the context, and withthe purpose to detect the
superstitions contained in them. He said,that the root of all evil is religious
superstition and irrationalthinking. He mentioned a number of recent wars and
explained howreligion was involved in it.
He asked me if I had ever embarked uponatheism before. I said yes, but that I
was still in my adolescence,and I hadn't gone very professional about it.
Probably I just thoughtthat I was an atheist, but still had hidden beliefs that
I didn'tdetect and recognize as such, and therefore I had a seriousregression
into religion, which lasted for decades. Dawkins noddedthoughtfully in
agreement. Now I wanted to be sure, that this won'thappen again.
I had one more question: what aboutmeditation, I asked, can I do meditation? At
this point, as this wasa dream, the face of Dawkins changed into that of
Curtis, and with afatherly clap on my shoulder he said: there is no harm in
meditationitself. Just know that any thought, or feeling, or vision or
whateverexperience you may get, it is just the random firing of neurons inyour
brain. As this is so, there is no need for analyzing thoughts ortaking them
serious. The same is true for any experience. And, headded, with another clap
on my shoulder, the mantra has no meaning,there is no woo woo in it at all. So,
just relax, and enjoy yourlife. It which the face changed again into Dawkins.
Dawkins made clear that all mysticalexperiences cannot be taken seriously, and
as most other irrationalthought of man, had no meaning at all. He also
emphasized, that ifscience doesn't give any meaning, then there simply isn't
any. Thiswas very important, because otherwise, the door to all
superstitionswould be opened again, and that the superstitions, have a way
withthe human consciousness, so, no matter how sophisticated yourthoughts, or
experiences would be, they would enter this door again,and this would be a
serious crisis, and the beginning of the regressinto irrational thinking.
Richard stood up, and ask me to alsostand. He became very serious: there is one
more thing, he said.Atheism itself is not a belief. It is a rejection of all
belief,final and absolute! Once you have rejected belief, you will befinally
free of all believes. As the object of atheism is not a god,it does not have an
object, and it rejects not to make any statementabout our existence as such.
Something that doesn't exist, doesn'thave to be proved. Do you agree?
I thought for a while, because I hadindeed thought, that atheism is also a form
of a believe, justdifferent in nature as theism is. I thought, if this is a
belief,then the absence of this is a belief as well, as we don't haveknowledge
of either, but Richard explained, that the burden of proofis on the one who
makes the first statement, and that is theism.Consequently atheism doesn't
count as belief.Finally, I thought, I will also go sofar. I was almost
accepted, and I would leave this room being a fullyfledged atheist. He made me
lay my left hand on his book, and myright hand on the book of Darwin, and I had
to pronounce aloud: I donot believe in any god, or any other superstition. I
will from now onreject all irrational thought.
Dawkins was obviously satisfied withme. He reached me a certificate, that I am
now an approved atheist.He said, that I should continue to work on my rejection
of allirrational thought and superstitions, and that I should be preparedto
find them throughtout life, in my habits and in my most secretthoughts. But my
resolve to be an atheist was the most importantthing, the basis for everything.
I should now pronounce to all myfriends and family members, that I am an
atheist, and should showthat, by challenging them, whenever they where
articulating religiousbeliefs. There where also regular services in some towns,
wherelike-minded people could meet, so we could all get strengthened inour
resolve. The shop held a number of articles, bumper stickers andt-shirts, and
of course, most importantly the books and pamphlets. Icould also donate money
to the atheist bus campaign, which raisesawareness about the advantages of
atheism, and the harmfulness ofsuperstitions and religion in general. I got a
t-shirt and a bumpersticker. Everybody of my friends would now know, that I am
anatheist, I was really proud, almost euphoric.
Then I awoke. The dream was so livelyso vivid, that I thought, it must have a
lucid dream, everything justseemed completely real. But now I was confused. If
everything wasjust a dream, if my resolve to become an atheist was just a
dream, amI now an atheist. I didn't have the certificate, the bumper stickerand
the t-shirt as a proof, that everything had really happened. So,the whole
council was not real, maybe just an irrational thought atthis, just more
unscientific illusions. Was I now an atheist or not,was it just my dream-self
making this resolution, and was I reallyconvinced myself or not? If this dream
is was so vivid, and if Ireally had believed in this dream, then my experience
had fooled meabsolutely, even though I was prepared to reject all illusions.
Howcould I be sure that this, is not yet another dream, just one dreamwithin
the other? I was confused and disturbed.
Then I nodded in again, and had a kindof a daydream. This time I was at the
ocean, and there was a littleboy, dressed like a Buddhist playing. I asked him,
who are you? I amthe little Buddha boy. What are you doing? He said, I'm just
hangingaround. I said that I had a real problem with reality, that I
didn'tknow, what was real, and what was illusory. He shrugged his shoulder.I
said that in a dream, I had made a resolve, but I wasn't sure ifthe same was
true for the waking state. I asked, is there adream-self and a waking self who
are different. He said that at eachmoment there is a different self, and that
the self of one moment isnot the self of the next moment, that indeed, there is
no self atall, and that all these moments are just connected by the
continuityof thinking, and that any resolve or thought would just reinforcethis
sense of continuity.
I said, that this was about a realimportant issue, something about the
fundamentals of belief. He said,there are no important issues, all the selves
are devoid of being,they are just like empty shells, they just get connected
andseemingly make up a self. I said, that my waking self thinksdifferent, then
my dream-self. He said, so what? It is no important.At this I awoke a second
time, and I was in peace.
#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266 -- #yiv9008486266ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid
#d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-mkp #yiv9008486266hd
{color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-mkp #yiv9008486266ads
{margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-mkp .yiv9008486266ad
{padding:0 0;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-mkp .yiv9008486266ad p
{margin:0;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-mkp .yiv9008486266ad a
{color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9008486266ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-sponsor #yiv9008486266ygrp-lc #yiv9008486266hd {margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-sponsor #yiv9008486266ygrp-lc .yiv9008486266ad
{margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266actions
{font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266activity
{background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266activity span:first-child
{text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266activity span a
{color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266activity span
span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266activity span
.yiv9008486266underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9008486266
.yiv9008486266attach
{clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}#yiv9008486266 .yiv9008486266attach div a
{text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266 .yiv9008486266attach img
{border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv9008486266 .yiv9008486266attach label
{display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv9008486266 .yiv9008486266attach label a
{text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266 blockquote {margin:0 0 0
4px;}#yiv9008486266 .yiv9008486266bold
{font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv9008486266
.yiv9008486266bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266 dd.yiv9008486266last
p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv9008486266 dd.yiv9008486266last p
span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv9008486266
dd.yiv9008486266last p span.yiv9008486266yshortcuts
{margin-right:0;}#yiv9008486266 div.yiv9008486266attach-table div div a
{text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266 div.yiv9008486266attach-table
{width:400px;}#yiv9008486266 div.yiv9008486266file-title a, #yiv9008486266
div.yiv9008486266file-title a:active, #yiv9008486266
div.yiv9008486266file-title a:hover, #yiv9008486266 div.yiv9008486266file-title
a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266 div.yiv9008486266photo-title a,
#yiv9008486266 div.yiv9008486266photo-title a:active, #yiv9008486266
div.yiv9008486266photo-title a:hover, #yiv9008486266
div.yiv9008486266photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266
div#yiv9008486266ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9008486266ygrp-msg p a
span.yiv9008486266yshortcuts
{font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv9008486266
.yiv9008486266green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv9008486266 .yiv9008486266MsoNormal
{margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv9008486266 o {font-size:0;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266photos div div {border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266photos div label
{color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv9008486266 .yiv9008486266replbq
{margin:4px;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-actbar div a:first-child
{margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-mlmsg
{font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv9008486266 input, #yiv9008486266 textarea
{font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv9008486266 code {font:115%
monospace;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-mlmsg *
{line-height:1.22em;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-mlmsg #yiv9008486266logo
{padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-msg p a
{font-family:Verdana;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-msg
p#yiv9008486266attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-reco #yiv9008486266reco-head
{color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-reco
{margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-sponsor
#yiv9008486266ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-sponsor #yiv9008486266ov li
{font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-sponsor #yiv9008486266ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0
8px;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-text
{font-family:Georgia;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em
0;}#yiv9008486266 #yiv9008486266ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv9008486266
#yiv9008486266ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none
!important;}#yiv9008486266
