you have to accept that yours aren't special.
This, the need to believe what we do and believe is special, is the driving
force that fuels religion and religious nut groups like the TMO - until some
thing happens to truly evolve humans beyond the need to feel special and to
force everyone else to believe the same thing or as in the case of groups like
the TMO to convince, cajole and trick everyone else into thinking the same way,
we are still gonna have people acting crazy.
From: salyavin808 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 9, 2015 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Religious Mind
---In [email protected], <steve.sundur@...> wrote :
Feste, what you say makes perfect sense to any sort of mature individual.
We all recognize that free speech is an inviolable part of democratic
societies. It is also a privilege really.
But if some use that right to endlessly insult others in the most crude
fashion, then because it is, and has always been a crazy world, at some point,
someone is coming to become unhinged and lash out, possibly in the worst
possible way.
And, if one has themself, a mindset of constantly pushing other people's
buttons to get reactions, then they become numbed to a certain sensitivity that
is the social lubricant of peaceful coexistence of differing views.
They would maintain, "I have the right to dump on you, and your beliefs and I
will continue to do so because it is my right, and if you don't like, then that
is just too bad"
To try to frame it in another way, is just a weak misdirection.
Quite right, we are much better off with a bunch of self appointed spokesmen
for supreme beings telling us what we can or can't say about the way our
societies are run. And if some can't cope with a difference of opinion and want
to both have their medieval religion and all the benefits of modern society
then they should be allowed to control the social debate with violence. Fly
planes into buildings, burn down theatres, murder cartoonists. It's our own
fault for daring to question the authority of the almighty.
I wonder what it is that makes you think it's our own fault, a desire for the
TMO to be accorded protected status perhaps? Buck wanted that to be the case.
Fact is we live in an evolving world. It's the job of religions to stay the
same and protect thier supposedly received wisdom. That's why these people
destroy, because they can't fit those two ideas into their heads at the same
time - one of them has to go.
Most societies are struggling to get away from millenia of religious rule and
all the structural disadvantages for women etc that they bring. Islam is just
the last religion to face the inevitable reformation to bring it more in line
with the reality of what people want and deserve. Most of them can cope but
some are insane with the strength of their upbringing, they can kick and scream
all they like, the only alternative is some horror like the Islamic state. You
can have your beliefs but if you live in a society where people hold different
ones you have to accept that yours aren't special.
---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :
If you deliberately go around provoking people, youshouldn’t be surprised if
eventually they lash out at you. If I am a rich manand I decide to walk in a
low-income, high-crime area with hundred-dollar billsattached to my clothing, I
will likely get robbed. The thieves are wrong tocommit robbery, but I must also
bear some responsibility for acting stupidly,since I know how much money means
to people and what they may do to get it. Thisis not blaming the victim but
applying common sense and acting accordingly. OtherwiseI put myself at risk as
well as innocent others.
---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: feste37 <[email protected]>
I see noreason to alter what I wrote. Insults from you are to be expected.
After all,that’s what you do, isn’t it? Two years ago, the French government
condemnedthe cartoons as needlessly provocative. See French magazine sparks
another controversy over Mohammed cartoons. I am notsaying the magazine should
be prevented from publishing them; only that to doso was ill-advised.
No problemo, feste. Thanks for clarifying your position.
I assume you also feel that women who are raped were ill-advised to wear
clothes that make them look like women, and that black people shot by the
police while just walking down the street were ill-advised to not bleach their
skins to look white. You're riding the "Blame the victim" bus. Now it all makes
sense.
| |
| | | | French magazine sparks another controversy over ... A French
satire magazine has published a special issue containing cartoons on the life
of Islam’s Prophet Mohammed. Similar images, which are deemed blasphemo... | |
| View on rt.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: feste37 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 12:37 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Religious Mind
Lampooning others' beliefs may be a tradition in the Westbut the Muslims don't
like it so I see no purpose in doing it in cartoons that insultthe prophet. It
only brings negative results, as we have seen.
I simply cannot believe that someone on this forum is dumb enough to believe
this, feste. You are in effect saying, "Lampooning the beliefs of people who
have threatened to kill us if we lampoon their ideas is a bad idea, because
they might kill us." An attitude like yours essentially ALLOWS these people
stuck in the Middle Ages to dictate to the world how they should act. The
people making these threats are terrorists. The people submitting to them are
perpetuating terrorism.
"The prophet" was just a man, as was almost every other spiritual figure in
history (unless they were women). People should just get over their fantasies
about these men and women.
These are thecartoons this magazine published:The Controversial Cartoons That
Are Said To Have Inspired The Terrorist Attack Against Charlie Hebdo. “In 2012,
the magazine includedmultiple caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad in which he
appeared naked; onewas called “Mohammad: a star is born,” and showed a man bent
over so his beardwas the only thing covering the lower half of his body. The
cover depictedMohammad in a wheelchair being pushed by an Orthodox Jew.”
I wouldn’t haveadvised this magazine to publish any of these, and indeed the
French governmentadvised the same. You have to remember that in Islam the
prophet is notdepicted. It is considered sacrilegious to do so (see the
article). No good will come from it. Itis just being offensive for the sake of
it.
| |
| | | | The Controversial Cartoons That Are Said To Have Inspi... At
least 12 were killed in a terrorist attack on the magazine's offices today. | |
| View on thinkprogress.org | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
---In [email protected], <s3raphita@...> wrote :
---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :
Ah, the bravery of the liberals who think they have a perfect right to insult
anyone's cherished beliefs just because they want to.
Brave for sure. They just paid with their lives.
Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to insult other people's religion.
They don't like it and it is not helpful to the situation. You should have
learned that in grade school.
Lampooning others' beliefs is a time-honoured tradition in the West.
---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]>
It's an odd kind of duty to publish cartoons that mock the founder of one of
the world's largest religions in the way that is plainly meant to be deeply
offensive to adherents of that faith. You say things cut both ways, and the
matter of respecting the faith of others does also.
Why should anyone *respect* a faith they regard as intolerant ofgays or women
or free speech? Respect has to be earned. I support anyone's right to criticize
Islam as robustly and satirically as they wish; just as I support someone's
right to argue that liberal attitudes to sexuality are repugnant. Let everyone
say what they wish; we can listen to their claims and come to our own
conclusions. What are you afraid of?
Thank you for saying this.
There is this terrible meme we have inherited for centuries -- both in the East
and in the West -- that says, "If we call it 'religious', it's *protected*. You
can't say bad stuff about it or criticize it."
During many of these centuries, the people saying this were IN CHARGE. Their
religion *ran* things. So if anyone *did* say anything critical of their
"religious" beliefs, they just killed their asses. Simple as that.
What we're seeing today in radical Islam and in the fundamentalist extremes of
religion such as Hindu Supremacy is a bunch of religious people wishing that
the world still worked that way. They'd really *like* to KILL anyone who
doesn't believe the way they think they should.
Currently on planet Earth, only one major religion is actually consistently
claiming to be PROUD of doing that -- killing anyone who doesn't believe the
way they think they should.
---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote :
It's an odd kind of duty to publish cartoons that mock the founder of one of
the world's largest religions in the way that is plainly meant to be deeply
offensive to adherents of that faith. You say things cut both ways, and the
matter of respecting the faith of others does also.
---In [email protected], <s3raphita@...> wrote :
Re "That other people don't see the world the same way you do should be the
first thing they have to teach at these "faith" schools.":
Well, yes. But can you imagine a state, secular school teaching kids that some
people regard homosexuality as an abomination, or that women's place is in the
home, etc, etc? It cuts both ways.
John Stuart Mill in On Liberty argued that we should always have some private
(non-state) schools otherwise the state would simply use its monopoly to push
the ideology of the ruling Establishment. He was right then; he's right now.
The problem is we have two opposing fundamentalisms: religious versus new
atheist/PC thinking. I don't subscribe to either as I want people to question
all authority. But you don't learn to question authority in school! I suspect
you don't *learn* it at all - you either have an enquiring mind or you don't.
Anyway, salutations to those killed at Charlie Hebdo. They died in the line of
duty.
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