Thanks, MJ! Turquoise B likes to distort other people's arguments. He does it all the time. He also seems to be developing a worrying habit of referring to those who disagree with him as "insane." Actually, I can see both sides of the argument, but I do not think that the right to free expression is absolute. We have laws that prohibit "hate" crimes, for example, which may include verbal insults and offensive graffiti. There is also the matter of the general welfare. The terrorist attack in Paris resulted in the deaths of two people (the policemen) who had nothing to do with the quarrel.
---In [email protected], <mjackson74@...> wrote : Aww come on, he's not saying that Barry - he's just saying that publishing cartoons that deliberately offend Islam is like waving the red cape in front of a bull - its just not a good idea. But I still think that the Muslims who live in non-Muslim countries need to just get over it. The Islamists can't really condone that I think because of what Mohammed supposedly wrote or said about killing anyone who insults a prophet. So they are stuck - they can't have credibility and not stand by that at the same time. But the more moderate Muslims must have some out to allow for that kind of thing. There do seem to be a lot of Muslims who think they should be allowed to do as they please and have no one say them nay, and that the rest of us have to go along with it. And here I am defending Feste, one of my most vigorous foes here on FFL (third actually behind Dougy who called for my speedy departure from this life via drone strike and his old buddy Nappy who would have cheered had such a thing happened) so the whole world is upside down anyway!!! From: "TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Religious Mind You're starting to scare me, feste, so I'm going to curtail any further discussions of this with you. It's like you have this blind spot about religion, deceiving you into thinking that if something calls itself a religion it has to be "respected," no matter how aberrant its beliefs may be. If you honestly think that there is, has ever been, or ever will be a time in human history in which it is permissible to kill a human being for making a drawing of another human being, then I'm sorry but you're as crazy as the radical Islamists are. From: feste37 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Religious Mind It is easy to talk grandly on a Yahoo group about the “responsibilities of thinking people,” but I stick to my original point: deliberate provocation of Muslims by means of grotesque cartoons serves the interests of no one. They drive the Muslims crazy and for what purpose? I used to be an editor of a newsmagazine, and we published cartoons, which I was responsible for selecting. This was in the days before radical Islam was perceived as a threat, so I don’t recall seeing any that mocked Islam, but we wouldn’t have printed them. Such cartoons are in bad taste. ---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote : From: feste37 <[email protected]> If you deliberately go around provoking people, you shouldn’t be surprised if eventually they lash out at you. Yes, you actually should. Especially when what you so euphemistically call "lashing out" involves Kalashnikovs and killing 12 people *for making fun of someone who died 1383 years ago*. You're describing insanity and trying to make it sound as if the insane are somehow justified in being this insane because someone drew a cartoon they didn't like. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but taking this stance is making YOU sound as insane as the people who perpetrated this massacre. If I am a rich man and I decide to walk in a low-income, high-crime area with hundred-dollar bills attached to my clothing, I will likely get robbed. The thieves are wrong to commit robbery, but I must also bear some responsibility for acting stupidly, since I know how much money means to people and what they may do to get it. This is not blaming the victim but applying common sense and acting accordingly. Otherwise I put myself at risk as well as innocent others. So you think that what 3/4 of the world's population should do is just keep quiet and never say *anything* that challenges what the insane lunatic fringe of the other 1/4 holds sacred. You feel that people should submit to threats of violence and do whatever those who are threatening them tell them to do, eh? Well, if you want to live your life as a frightened little rabbit, fine. But don't suggest that those who don't want to live that way should. And don't suggest that when the insane people finally go over the top and carry through on their threats that it's somehow the fault of those who -- unlike you -- refused to be bullied. It is the *responsibility* of thinking people on this planet to point out how insane and out of touch with reality this lunatic fringe of Islam is. To do so is not without risk, given HOW insane these people are, but the alternative is to live like frightened sheep, something you seem to be advising. ---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote : From: feste37 <[email protected]> I see no reason to alter what I wrote. Insults from you are to be expected. After all, that’s what you do, isn’t it? Two years ago, the French government condemned the cartoons as needlessly provocative. See French magazine sparks another controversy over Mohammed cartoons http://rt.com/news/france-mohammed-muslim-cartoon-224/. I am not saying the magazine should be prevented from publishing them; only that to do so was ill-advised. No problemo, feste. Thanks for clarifying your position. I assume you also feel that women who are raped were ill-advised to wear clothes that make them look like women, and that black people shot by the police while just walking down the street were ill-advised to not bleach their skins to look white. You're riding the "Blame the victim" bus. Now it all makes sense. http://rt.com/news/france-mohammed-muslim-cartoon-224/ French magazine sparks another controversy over ... http://rt.com/news/france-mohammed-muslim-cartoon-224/ A French satire magazine has published a special issue containing cartoons on the life of Islam’s Prophet Mohammed. Similar images, which are deemed blasphemo... View on rt.com http://rt.com/news/france-mohammed-muslim-cartoon-224/ Preview by Yahoo ---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote : From: feste37 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 12:37 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Religious Mind Lampooning others' beliefs may be a tradition in the West but the Muslims don't like it so I see no purpose in doing it in cartoons that insult the prophet. It only brings negative results, as we have seen. I simply cannot believe that someone on this forum is dumb enough to believe this, feste. You are in effect saying, "Lampooning the beliefs of people who have threatened to kill us if we lampoon their ideas is a bad idea, because they might kill us." An attitude like yours essentially ALLOWS these people stuck in the Middle Ages to dictate to the world how they should act. The people making these threats are terrorists. The people submitting to them are perpetuating terrorism. "The prophet" was just a man, as was almost every other spiritual figure in history (unless they were women). People should just get over their fantasies about these men and women. These are the cartoons this magazine published: The Controversial Cartoons That Are Said To Have Inspired The Terrorist Attack Against Charlie Hebdo http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/01/07/3608780/charlie-hebdo/. “In 2012, the magazine included multiple caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad in which he appeared naked; one was called “Mohammad: a star is born,” and showed a man bent over so his beard was the only thing covering the lower half of his body. The cover depicted Mohammad in a wheelchair being pushed by an Orthodox Jew.” I wouldn’t have advised this magazine to publish any of these, and indeed the French government advised the same. You have to remember that in Islam the prophet is not depicted. It is considered sacrilegious to do so (see the article). No good will come from it. It is just being offensive for the sake of it. http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/01/07/3608780/charlie-hebdo/ The Controversial Cartoons That Are Said To Have Inspi... http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/01/07/3608780/charlie-hebdo/ At least 12 were killed in a terrorist attack on the magazine's offices today. View on thinkprogress.org http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/01/07/3608780/charlie-hebdo/ Preview by Yahoo ---In [email protected], <s3raphita@...> wrote : ---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote : Ah, the bravery of the liberals who think they have a perfect right to insult anyone's cherished beliefs just because they want to. Brave for sure. They just paid with their lives. Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to insult other people's religion. They don't like it and it is not helpful to the situation. You should have learned that in grade school. Lampooning others' beliefs is a time-honoured tradition in the West. ---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote : From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]> It's an odd kind of duty to publish cartoons that mock the founder of one of the world's largest religions in the way that is plainly meant to be deeply offensive to adherents of that faith. You say things cut both ways, and the matter of respecting the faith of others does also. Why should anyone *respect* a faith they regard as intolerant of gays or women or free speech? Respect has to be earned. I support anyone's right to criticize Islam as robustly and satirically as they wish; just as I support someone's right to argue that liberal attitudes to sexuality are repugnant. Let everyone say what they wish; we can listen to their claims and come to our own conclusions. What are you afraid of? Thank you for saying this. There is this terrible meme we have inherited for centuries -- both in the East and in the West -- that says, "If we call it 'religious', it's *protected*. You can't say bad stuff about it or criticize it."
