There are some things we know just through observation and common sense without
even speculating about whether or not space is curved or whether or not there
are parallel universes. We can see with our own eyes that things fall down
because of gravity. Things fall down because they are determined - falling
objects are the result of cause and effect.
According to what I've read, "This observation is true even if the brain can
avail itself of undetermined quantum swerves at the sub-atomic level, and thus
escape the shackles of physical law."
"We continually influence, and are influenced by, the world around us and the
world within us. It may seem paradoxical to hold people responsible for what
happens in their corner of the universe, but once we break the spell of free
will, we can do this precisely to the degree that it is useful." - Sam Harris.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <anartaxius@...> wrote :
'I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers
which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and
different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not
absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don't know anything
about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we're here. I don't have to
know an answer. I don't feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a
mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far
as I can tell.'
—Richard
P. Feynman
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 2:10 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ramayan in Human Physiology-with video links
Re "How lame would a person have to be to even *think* like that, much less
commit suicide over it. If this scenario is reasonable to you, could you
explain it to me?":
Re Niven's story: If all choices are without any ultimate meaning then the
conclusion follows. If *you* decide to commit suicide, in another parallel
world *you* don't commit suicide. So whether you commit suicide or not makes
not the slightest difference in the sum total of reality. Ditto whether you
become a murderer or a humanitarian, etc, etc. Bit dispiriting, no?
Not at all. Thanks for the explanation, but I still don't get why Niven (or
anyone else) would think that "life having no meaning" would be "dispiriting"
or cause anyone distress. As far as I can tell, life has no meaning right here
and now, even given one universe. :-)
My point was that I don't think that very many people in the real world make
decisions very often based on whether some abstract theory has been proven true
or not. Meaning, no meaning...life is still life. Anyone pragmatic just gets on
with the living of it. One would have to be pretty stuck inside one's head to
get all distraught over a little thing like "life having no meaning."
Thanks also for the explanation of the quantum suicide thing, although I got
that theory the first time around. With it, however, my objection is the same.
I don't think there would be more than 1 person in a million who would give
enough of a shit about such theoretical stuff to be concerned with it.
The "Quantum Suicide" scenario is different. Here, the idea is that whether a
gun fires or not (with 50/50 probability) is linked to a quantum event. As the
quantum event (say the spin clockwise or anticlockwise of a particle) exists in
two alternative worlds then your being dead AND alive (the gun fired/did not
fire) must exist in the same two alternative worlds. In one world you're dead
so it's lights out. In the other world your life is spared so your
consciousness continues. But it's your (Barry's) "I" that has split so if you
play this quantum Russian roulette ten times in a row and you're still alive
then the many-worlds theory must be true. (The only other option is that by
some fluke you've evaded odds of 1/210.)
If you want to try this at home and so confirm that the many-worlds theory is
indeed true then bear in mind that this suicide experiment only works if the
gun's firing or not is linked to a *quantum* uncertainty. It doesn't work if
you just roll dice to decide the issue (that's classical physics). Stay safe.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <richard@...> wrote :
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <turquoiseb@...> wrote :
While I'm certain all of this is fascinating to those who are fascinated by
such things, I find myself reacting similarly to the way I did when you brought
up the fellow who wanted to spend his last moments before dying rectifying the
mistakes he'd made in the past. That just does not compute for me.
First, we should probably state that this argument is way beyond our pay grade,
meaning that most people don't even think about these kinds of subjects. Most
ordinary people on the street are not philosophers and deep thinkers or
scientists with authored studies.
Similarly, the concept of someone becoming so distraught that another version
of themselves is more successful or having more fun in another universe than
they are does not compute for me. How lame would a person have to be to even
*think* like that, much less commit suicide over it. If this scenario is
reasonable to you, could you explain it to me?
The question is, do we have free will, able to cause change at will, or is
everything determines, there are causes for everything that happens, karma.
Obviously, being caused means not being free, whither its on this earthly plane
or in a parallel universe.
This brings up other questions such as what is determinism, the scientific
thesis that there are causes for everything that happens, and what is
free-will, or non-determinism?
According to Sam Harris, "We continually influence, and are influenced by, the
world around us and the world within us. It may seem paradoxical to hold
people responsible for what happens in their corner of the universe, but once
we break the spell of free will, we can do this precisely to the degree that it
is useful."
Free Will
by Sam Harris
Free Press
p.63
From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 3:27 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ramayan in Human Physiology-with video links
Re my post from a while back: "Someone (I forget who) wrote a sci-fi book in
which the multiworlds quantum theory has been finally proved true and there is
a mass outbreak of suicides as people realize that elsewhere there are other
"themselves" who made the right career choice, made the right choice of
partner, etc, and they can't bear the thought they're stuck in this universe as
failures.":
I just now came upon the title. It's All the Myriad Ways by Larry Niven.
From Wiki:
In the eponymous story contained within, Niven attempted to craft a response
to stories featuring the many-worlds interpretation as a key plot point, taking
the social implications of infinite realities to a depressing conclusion. A
police detective, pondering a rash of unexplained suicides and murder-suicides
occurring since the discovery of travel to parallel universes, begins to
realize that if all possible choices that might be made are actually made in
parallel universes, people will see their freedom of choice as meaningless. The
choice not to commit suicide, or not to commit a crime, seems meaningless if
one knows that in some other universe, the choice went the other way. They
therefore kill themselves or commit the crime, because they abandon the sense
of choice.
I'm reading a book at the moment called Our Mathematical Universe by Max
Tegmark (described on the cover as "one of the rock gods of cosmology") which
argues that the many-worlds theory is our best explanation for our physical
universe. As a bonus he includes an experiment that could prove the many-worlds
theory true! It involves playing Russian roulette with a gun that would fire or
not depending on a 50/50 quantum uncertainty. Here's an explanation of "Quantum
Suicide" from a web page. It's neat!
http://io9.com/5891740/quantum-suicide-how-to-prove-the-multiverse-exists-in-the-most-violent-way-possible
http://io9.com/5891740/quantum-suicide-how-to-prove-the-multiverse-exists-in-the-most-violent-way-possible
