---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote : Exactly. I honestly don't understand how someone would be upset at hearing from some supposed scientific authority that life has no meaning, when the only reason they believe that it *does* have meaning is that they've been told that it has by supposed religious authorities. Hearsay and empty theory, either way.
"Meaning" is a human invention, and one that as far as I can tell has no relationship to reality on any level or in any universe. Nihilism is the rejection of all spiritual and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless, purposeless, or lacks any intrinsic value. From: "anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ramayan in Human Physiology-with video links 'I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we're here. I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell.' —Richard P. Feynman ---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote : From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 2:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ramayan in Human Physiology-with video links Re "How lame would a person have to be to even *think* like that, much less commit suicide over it. If this scenario is reasonable to you, could you explain it to me?": Re Niven's story: If all choices are without any ultimate meaning then the conclusion follows. If *you* decide to commit suicide, in another parallel world *you* don't commit suicide. So whether you commit suicide or not makes not the slightest difference in the sum total of reality. Ditto whether you become a murderer or a humanitarian, etc, etc. Bit dispiriting, no? Not at all. Thanks for the explanation, but I still don't get why Niven (or anyone else) would think that "life having no meaning" would be "dispiriting" or cause anyone distress. As far as I can tell, life has no meaning right here and now, even given one universe. :-) My point was that I don't think that very many people in the real world make decisions very often based on whether some abstract theory has been proven true or not. Meaning, no meaning...life is still life. Anyone pragmatic just gets on with the living of it. One would have to be pretty stuck inside one's head to get all distraught over a little thing like "life having no meaning." Thanks also for the explanation of the quantum suicide thing, although I got that theory the first time around. With it, however, my objection is the same. I don't think there would be more than 1 person in a million who would give enough of a shit about such theoretical stuff to be concerned with it. The "Quantum Suicide" scenario is different. Here, the idea is that whether a gun fires or not (with 50/50 probability) is linked to a quantum event. As the quantum event (say the spin clockwise or anticlockwise of a particle) exists in two alternative worlds then your being dead AND alive (the gun fired/did not fire) must exist in the same two alternative worlds. In one world you're dead so it's lights out. In the other world your life is spared so your consciousness continues. But it's your (Barry's) "I" that has split so if you play this quantum Russian roulette ten times in a row and you're still alive then the many-worlds theory must be true. (The only other option is that by some fluke you've evaded odds of 1/210.) If you want to try this at home and so confirm that the many-worlds theory is indeed true then bear in mind that this suicide experiment only works if the gun's firing or not is linked to a *quantum* uncertainty. It doesn't work if you just roll dice to decide the issue (that's classical physics). Stay safe. ---In [email protected], <richard@...> wrote : ---In [email protected], <turquoiseb@...> wrote : While I'm certain all of this is fascinating to those who are fascinated by such things, I find myself reacting similarly to the way I did when you brought up the fellow who wanted to spend his last moments before dying rectifying the mistakes he'd made in the past. That just does not compute for me. First, we should probably state that this argument is way beyond our pay grade, meaning that most people don't even think about these kinds of subjects. Most ordinary people on the street are not philosophers and deep thinkers or scientists with authored studies. Similarly, the concept of someone becoming so distraught that another version of themselves is more successful or having more fun in another universe than they are does not compute for me. How lame would a person have to be to even *think* like that, much less commit suicide over it. If this scenario is reasonable to you, could you explain it to me? The question is, do we have free will, able to cause change at will, or is everything determines, there are causes for everything that happens, karma. Obviously, being caused means not being free, whither its on this earthly plane or in a parallel universe. This brings up other questions such as what is determinism, the scientific thesis that there are causes for everything that happens, and what is free-will, or non-determinism? According to Sam Harris, "We continually influence, and are influenced by, the world around us and the world within us. It may seem paradoxical to hold people responsible for what happens in their corner of the universe, but once we break the spell of free will, we can do this precisely to the degree that it is useful." Free Will by Sam Harris Free Press p.63 From: "s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 3:27 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ramayan in Human Physiology-with video links Re my post from a while back: "Someone (I forget who) wrote a sci-fi book in which the multiworlds quantum theory has been finally proved true and there is a mass outbreak of suicides as people realize that elsewhere there are other "themselves" who made the right career choice, made the right choice of partner, etc, and they can't bear the thought they're stuck in this universe as failures.": I just now came upon the title. It's All the Myriad Ways by Larry Niven. From Wiki: In the eponymous story contained within, Niven attempted to craft a response to stories featuring the many-worlds interpretation as a key plot point, taking the social implications of infinite realities to a depressing conclusion. A police detective, pondering a rash of unexplained suicides and murder-suicides occurring since the discovery of travel to parallel universes, begins to realize that if all possible choices that might be made are actually made in parallel universes, people will see their freedom of choice as meaningless. The choice not to commit suicide, or not to commit a crime, seems meaningless if one knows that in some other universe, the choice went the other way. They therefore kill themselves or commit the crime, because they abandon the sense of choice. I'm reading a book at the moment called Our Mathematical Universe by Max Tegmark (described on the cover as "one of the rock gods of cosmology") which argues that the many-worlds theory is our best explanation for our physical universe. As a bonus he includes an experiment that could prove the many-worlds theory true! It involves playing Russian roulette with a gun that would fire or not depending on a 50/50 quantum uncertainty. Here's an explanation of "Quantum Suicide" from a web page. It's neat! http://io9.com/5891740/quantum-suicide-how-to-prove-the-multiverse-exists-in-the-most-violent-way-possible http://io9.com/5891740/quantum-suicide-how-to-prove-the-multiverse-exists-in-the-most-violent-way-possible
