I don't think we will see eye to eye on this within the context of this discussion, though I heartily agree with what you had said earlier about being true to oneself, and having the courage of your convictions (paraphrasing). The topic of abortion can be such a contentious issue, and yet we've had about fifty exchanges on this subject, here on FFL, opening up a host of different perspectives.
To Doug: Thanks for (re)creating a great environment here - it is really taking off. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mdixon.6569@...> wrote : Geeez dude, don't take my word. Check it out your self. As for the definition of murder, check it out . It also usually includes willful and *unjust* killing. A fetus doesn't threaten anyone. It is totally innocent. In the case of wars, killing an enemy that is a threat, has never been considered murder. Although by today's standard there are clear limitations. Even the killing of civilians is not considered murder, if it was not intended and I would assume precautions were taken to avoid it. As far as I can tell, every culture and religion has made an exception for killing another human for self defense and war or at least a defensive war. From: "olliesedwuz@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] 'Debate from Hell' Even if I take you at your word here, this still lacks an explanation for why this is the bigger issue, vs. the lives lost through US led invasions of other countries. To say waging war is self-defense makes such actions morally meaningless, allowing us aggression in any quarter, justified as 'self-defense'. Where are the demonstrations against the murders occurring as a result of our actions outside our borders? Why should independent human beings get less or no consideration, than fetuses, regarding their murders, if we define murder as you have here? It seems you are going after the easy target. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mdixon.6569@...> wrote : Murder is defined as the willful killing of another *human being*, *especially* with malice. Notice , one doesn't have to exhibit malice to have committed murder. If a fetus is not a human being, what is it? Mind you, there was a time in our history when slaves were not considered complete human beings.<There doesn't have to be an ounce of hatred in a person to commit murder. It can be done in a moment of panic, desperation or irrational fear, based on not being aware of another option or solution to a difficult problem, which I think is the bases of most abortions. It can be out of a total lack of respect or concern for others, based on ones on selfish motivations. One doesn't have to know anything about the person they murder, which certainly is not the case in abortions.The mother certainly knows it is her child that she shares responsibility for creating. Some abortions are done because the pregnancy would threaten the life of the mother and there are other reasons. But the overwhelming majority are done as a means of birth control because someone, either male or female, or even both, failed to take the necessary steps to prevent a pregnancy. One human being should never have to pay with their life for the mistake of another. From: "olliesedwuz@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 6:59 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] 'Debate from Hell' Let's talk about this term, "murder", wrt an abortion. I know the radical preachers have seized on this term as a graphic and ugly description of abortion. But, have any of them known a murder victim? Someone who had a full life and a circle of friends and family, those that loved them, who would never see them again? Hard core memories of this person remain, their smile, their belongings, the many activities shared, their pictures in the high school yearbook. I lost two friends that way in high school, both young women, one was hitchhiking, and the other's car broke down. And does anyone think about the actual mindset of a murderer? Aside from killings done in the heat of the moment, murderers are violent thugs and predators who deliberately enjoy inflicting pain on others - As evil as it gets. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mdixon.6569@...> wrote : About 53 million abortions since Row v Wade.About 300,000 last year. Hitler murdered 6 million innocent lives alone in a 5-6 yer period. Stalin murdered about 20 million, Mao about fifty million. We've got them beat! From: "awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] 'Debate from Hell' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mdixon.6569@...> wrote : I guess it depends on your definition of *judge*. Do I recognize poor choices?Is it from poor up bringing or low intelligence.-or is it something else. Does that person learn from their mistakes or do they keep repeating the same mistake over and over. Do they ever figure out that they are making mistakes and , poor choices. Do they feel any responsibility for their choices? Do they even care? Do they feel entitled to make mistakes without consequences? Some people learn things the easy way, others the hard way. How much empathy, compassion and understanding is expected of me? For how long and to what degree? Are they taking advantage of my good will? If it's their nature to learn things the hard way, is my help actually retarding their learning process? Some people are real victims of circumstances through no fault of their own. They didn't make poor choices but shit happened. Maybe their husband died or just left them or became totally disabled. Aren't they more deserving of my empathy and compassion than someone that never grew up? When I was younger, out of wedlock births were relatively low. Today, I think it is over or at least close to half. Something is dreadfully wrong. When it comes to the woman that has the abortion, I am fully aware that she is probably confused and frightened of her future and doesn't know what to do and ends up taking the remedy with the quickest results. I feel terribly sorry for her because I don't think she really and fully understands what she has just done. Yes, she'll always remember it and the anguish. But she was talked into it and told it was the best thing to do. This is what the Beast does. What is the Beast, it's the system! Overview: Quick Stats • Half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and about four in 10 of these end in abortion.[1] • About half of American women will have an unintended pregnancy, [2] and nearly 3 in 10 will have an abortion, by age 45.[3] • The overall U.S. unintended pregnancy rate increased slightly between 1994 and 2008, but unintended pregnancy increased 55% among poor women, while decreasing 24% among higher-income women.[1,6] • Overall, the abortion rate decreased 8% between 2000 and 2008, but abortion increased 18% among poor women, while decreasing 28% among higher-income women.[3] • Some 1.06 million abortions were performed in 2011, down from 1.21 million abortions in 2008, a decline of 13%.[4] • The number of U.S. abortion providers declined 4% between 2008 (1,793) and 2011 (1,720). The number of clinics providing abortion services declined 1%, from 851 to 839. Eighty-nine percent of all U.S. counties lacked an abortion clinic in 2011; 38% of women live in those counties.[4] • Nine in 10 abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.[5] • A broad cross section of U.S. women have abortions:[3] 58% are in their 20s; 61% have one or more children; 56% are unmarried and not cohabiting; 69% are economically disadvantaged; and 73% report a religious affiliation.
