---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <olliesedwuz@...> wrote :
Going back into this, your original assertions were that yagyas don't work and people should not spend their money on them, and possibly that the TMO takes the money without having yagyas performed. Given that there is no meaningful data whatsoever to back up either of these statements, why should they be seen as scientific? It's good to see people trying to get to grips with what's scientific and what isn't but I never made any claims that either statement was scientific. But we can make it so: It's pretty obvious that yagyas don't work because we don't have world peace or a vastu village in the north of England (a lot of money was raised for yagyas for both). My friend with the migraines still has them despite spending $25,000 on these prayers. These are a few examples and you might say we can't draw big conclusions from small samples but if they did work we would have world peace, a lot of people I know would still be alive, have better jobs, immortal cats, etc etc. So much for taking them at face value, now let's get scientific about how they are claimed to work. The theory is that a group of people chanting the names of Hindu gods and your jyotish chart, and a simple request for said gods to grant you great boons, somehow radiates through a mysterious field of consciousness and either enhances your life in the hoped for way or cancels out negative influences from things you have done in the past. This puts it into the realm of physics, as John Hagelin is always pleased to explain, the thing about physics is that it works on high probabilities, if I have an electron say, and send it in one direction it will behave in a highly predictable way. Same with all other known forces and laws (otherwise they wouldn't be laws). Yagyas seem to break this mould of physical predictability. Perhaps because jyotish has no evidence backing it up, and the Hindu gods aren't really aspects of quantum functioning and this "unified field of consciousness" doesn't exist either. As far as current knowledge of physics goes, the whole shebang seems to draw a complete blank. Not only does it fail it's own predicted tests but it contradicts everything else we know. If it was a failsafe process and always worked (rather than, apparently, never) then we'd have to rewrite physics to incorporate it. But as it is I don't think Einstein and Dirac have much to worry about. But here's the really interesting thing, you are so convinced that it's a real phenomenon that you perhaps think that it's up to me to prove that it doesn't work, but really I'm on the side of convincing explanations of the physical world and that doesn't include the power of prayer. So it becomes up to you to provide evidence that said powers do work. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Currently I see no evidence that yagya work. QED. It is awfully hard to discuss statements with no basis to them. You may have some anecdotal evidence, but that hardly meets a scientific threshold. Thank you. This is exactly what I would ask you to provide. Let's see some actual evidence instead of anecdotal evidence. The status quo within the TMO is that yagyas are performed for money. Setting yourself against that is a tall order, and to do so definitively requires more than simple assertions. The TMO is far from perfect and I haven't seen any arguments to the contrary here on FFL. That is a good baseline. You now seem confused I have never set myself against the idea that yagya are performed for money. And why do you use the term "baseline"? It's rather out of context here. A baseline for yagya would be the expected result of random human interaction. Proof that yagya work would be a significant change in those interactions, we'd notice sudden changes, things like world peace (we've been paying for yagyas for that for decades now) or sick people getting better (remember the claim of the very expensive health yagya is that they improve your health). Basically, if we had a way of influencing run-of-the-mill events we'd notioce it every time we did a yagya. But challenging the validity of individual programs takes more than strong statements that they don't work. Those that do so repeatedly begin to sound an awful lot like fundamentalists of any stripe, and I ask myself, why? Why are these baseless statements made again and again? Simply because nobody has tried to prove the claims that are made and that people spend a lot of money on. And this is odd because the TMO claims to be a scientific organisation! You'd think they'd want hard evidence as so much depends on people keeping up the donations. There is much to be said for advancing ideas through discourse, but there must be something there. Fundamentalism doesn't fit that definition. The anti-TM crowd is all about fundamentalism, a bunch of know-it-alls, far more similar to their counterparts in the TMO than they would ever like to think. I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion, asking for evidence to back up extraordinary claims is not fundamentalism. It's an essential part of trying to find things out. In science, the term fundamental is used when you need to understand something about a subject before you can understand anything else. Quantum theory is fundamental to particle physics, DNA is fundamental to biology etc. To accept the dogma of Marshy's SCI is fundamentalism because it claims to be explaining reality at a very deep level. So deep that it's the ultimate form of knowledge. If this was the case it would all make sense and provide us with complete understanding and it's offshoot "technologies" like yagya's would actually work. Every time. Because it would be real. PS Once again, I'm not claiming the TMO doesn't do the yagya's they take money for but I wonder how the few hundred pundits they have could ever have the time to do the many thousands that we know are ordered every month. I get regular emails asking for donations to support the rubiskarinaksha (or whatever it is) which is performed all day long apparently, they must work nights too to do all the health and national yagya and sick pets and job hunting etc. I'd simply like to see accountability on how much is raised and what is done and by whom. Is there something wrong with that considering a lot of my friends are True Believers who contribute much every month? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <olliesedwuz@...> wrote : Is Anti-TM a New Religion? Well, if we consider religion to be a pointer to something it no longer contains, Isn't that a bit self-confirming? Who - apart from you - ever used that as a description of religion? then the answer is "yes". Just as those who go to church regularly because it strengthens their beliefs, so do these naysayers regularly repeat themselves, feeling "safer" inside the boundaries of their "important discoveries". Taking on something like the obvious corruption within the TMO by posturing on forums is another way of saying, "I don't have a life", writ large. So, depending on the degree of obsession, I would say that "Anti-TM" has become a de-facto religion for some. If I was interested in being "safe" I wouldn't come here and raise the issues would I? I'm actually interested in debate and trying to work out how things work (or not) and why people continue to believe them when it's obvious they don't. Your "shoot the messenger" posts are an interesting example of defensive tactics, You disagree with me so obviously you don't have a life. Step outside yourself and see how reasonable a statement that is. I tend to be wary of those who are either always extolling spiritual and religious experience, or always knocking it. Both are somewhat unbalanced, as I am sure their daily lives indicate. Why are you sure? I think you're projecting how you'd like people to be but you seem rather religious to me btu I know I'll hear that old lecture about how TM is superior, I was never convinced but give it a go and I'll try a counter argument. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony2k5@...> wrote : Is Anti-TM a New Religion? Ollie, Interesting observation you are making here about the Anti-TM’ers. Salyavin’s consistent content as criticism here is honed and well stated within the Yahoo-groups guidelines except for the default to the ad hominem, the interesting thing in general is how the anti-TM’ers have come in to cohort as what seems like the a non-theistic religion of anti-TM, The Religious Cohort of Anti-TM,, Federal Court opinion on what makes a religion.. ..“Indica” of religion: 'Ultimate ideas', 'Comprehensive', 'Structure'. [Federal Court opinion: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/419588 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/419588 Re: Is TM a New Religion? The Federal District Court https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/426884 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/426884 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <olliesedwuz@...> wrote : yeah, very strange. These people have become bitterly disappointed at their experiences regarding TM, and so, "attempt to spread the truth about TM and the org behind it" and "save" others. There is not a nickel's worth of space between that expression and the Christian fundamentalists - same psychological mistake; transference. They cannot accept that they didn't get it, and so turn on those who are experiencing a benefit, blind to the fact that any issue is with themselves, and not the TM or TMO, or practitioners of TM. This is in no way a defense of the TM Org, which has a lot of issues. But there are ways of tackling a problem productively, and there is empty complaining. As you say, we are all adults, and nobody appreciates a bunch of blowhards trumpeting the same hollow message, that they know the real truth about TM and the TMO and are here to enlighten the rest of us. What rubbish. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <steve.sundur@...> wrote : Strange, ain't it. Someone, in this case, Salyavin, feeling they need to save someone from themselves. As if there is not abundant information to peruse with regard to the TM movement such that Salyavin feels the impassioned need to take on the role. What becomes a little weird is that there is no difference from this attitude and the fundamentalist attitude that "they" (the fundamentalist) knows what's best for another, and therefore makes it a mission to convert "the other". And then, you must ask, where does it end. The title of this autobiography is, "How I Became a Tyrant" ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : I figure most of those investing in or tooting the horn for yagya donations are grown adults who can decide if they want to spend their money on chanting or on a fitbit or the latest VW convertible. But can they decide? When you're embroiled in a cult you can really start to believe what they tell you as I'm sure you're aware. Obviously it's up to people to become scientifically aware and think their way out of the stupidity before it bankrupts them or they end up moving to a town where this sort of excuse for thinking is taken so much for granted that it becomes a given rather than the utterly astonishing load of pseudo-scientific nonsense that it actually is. Grown ups can believe anything they like, but if people you know are habitually throwing their money into a hole in the ground - or in this case real estate in Florida - when they think they are creating some sort of peace creating group of Indian chanters the we owe it to them to darw it to their attention or we aren't very good friends. If you knew someone who was being scammed by a devious pension plan wouldn't you tell them if you knew? Yet the TMO gets many millions from selling prayers and all the while setting up a pseudo-scientific justification in the shape of Marshy's crap lectures about the unified field and continuing with John Hagelin's equally crap videos about string theory. It's a deliberate attempt to mis-sell something. The funny thing is they claim to be interested in science and yet they never put any of the more dubious products on the TM price list under any sort of serious scrutiny. Now, this discussion about Nader and how he could possibly have so much money (how much does he have? ) seems like many are jumping to conclusions about his guilt with regard to the Movement handing over millions of dollars to him for some reason. Why would they do this? Is he worth that much to them? I don't know Nader from a hole in the ground other than, I believe, he possesses a gold outfit complete with crown in his closet. I suggest people get some hard facts before proclaiming his guilt from the rooftops. BTW, where did you get your information? Judy seems to think that is important and you didn't answer that question in your response here. Judy has consistently demonstrated that she is an idiot to the extent that I never read her posts. She knows as well as I do where all this information about King Tony comes from. Is there another explanation for the wealth of the Nader family other than the TMO setting him up as some sort of world leader in waiting? If there is I haven't seen it, as he's a public figure appointed by Marshy to be the hereditary ruler of his domain I think we are owed an explanation. But I don't trust the TMO about money for the reasons I have stated. Nonprofit Financial Statements - FindLaw http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/incorporation-and-legal-structures/nonprofit-financial-statements.html http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/incorporation-and-legal-structures/nonprofit-financial-statements.html Nonprofit Financial Statements - FindLaw http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/incorporation-and-legal-structures/nonprofit-financial-statements.html Question: Do 501(c)(3) non-profit corporations have to make their financial statements available to the public? Answer: Yes. Non-profit corporations ... View on smallbusiness.findlaw... http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/incorporation-and-legal-structures/nonprofit-financial-statements.html Preview by Yahoo -JaiGuruYou ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <rick@...> wrote : http://m.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/business/real-estate/palm-beacher-pays-43m-for-lot-a-half-mile-from-hom/nqDbj/ http://m.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/business/real-estate/palm-beacher-pays-43m-for-lot-a-half-mile-from-hom/nqDbj/ I just read this. Isn't Tony Nader one of the Rajas? Or is he just a scientist/doctor? Not having been a follower of what goes on in the TM Movement since 1985 I presume this is news - the fact that he has some bucks? If you're a Raja don't you have had to have donated a wheelbarrow full of money or something? If that is the case, the amount is $1m (?) then it comes as no surprise that someone has a lot more than that in their bank account. Only an idiot would donate $1m and not have at least $10m in the bank, minimum. salyavin808 writes: This is the TMO doing what it does best. Soliciting donations for it's "world plan for world peace, bringing enlightenment and prosperity to all nations" and then spending it all on real estate. They have big plans you see, the idea has always a world wide network of palaces and embassies for the "rajas", but no one would pay for that directly so they get you with the old "pundit program" scam, it still seems to work, get a maniac like John Hagelin to make it all sound scientific with a video about string theory, and everyone will think it's valid in some sort of demonstrable way, Before you know it the millions are rolling in from the hopeful flock who have been brainwashed for decades with crap about vedas and physics and now vedas and physiology. I do remember them saying that they'd give refunds in future if the "peace creating" pundit groups didn't happen. Well they didn't happen, not even slightly. This recent layout of funds on big houses for the bigwigs gives the lie to that. It should be obvious that not even they believe all that "coherence creating" bullshit, the question is: What are TMers going to do about it? I'm sure you all received the letter I did recently, about doubling your monthly donation for the yagya programme? Bet you didn't think it was going on flying lessons for the King, expensive jeweller for his wife, or expensive - and non TM - schools for their kids. Keep the money rolling in, Heaven on Earth awaits. Just not for you.... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <dhamiltony2k5@...> wrote : Tonight's Phone Call with Maharaja Rajaraam Enjoy an Evening with Maharaja Adhiraj Rajaraam Extra seating will be available in Festival Hall We are looking forward to the phone call from Maharaja Adhiraj Rajaraam during Lesson Two of the Ramayan in Human Physiology Course this evening. Everyone is invited. This event is free, and you can come even if you missed Lesson One. It starts at 7:45in Dalby Hall. We expect lots of people, so please come early. Extra room is provided in Festival Hall. The first two lessons of the Ramayan in Human Physiology are free and open to the community. Everyone is invited. The prerequisite for the course is instruction in the TM Technique and completion of STC108 or equivalent; or completion of the TM-Sidhis Course and a valid dome badge. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <olliesedwuz@...> wrote : Brilliant. Yes, two sides of the same coin, yet not letting go of the coin, which rusted through a long time ago. A dodge and distraction from life's procession. Both the followers and anti-followers create meaning around an object which cannot be perfected nor destroyed, perpetually. A spinning mirror to look into, transfixed, instead of simply dealing with the nature of life and our intimate relationship with it. The mind as the naked emperor, parading in front of its fantasies. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <awoelflebater@...> wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <mdixon.6569@...> wrote : Yeah, he be the MAHARAJA! I would guess his family has money, especially if he's a doctor and hung out with Maharishi a lot. I doubt he has had to spend much time in an emergency room or maintain a practice fixing up people to pay off student loans. It is very apparent that the guy has money, and it makes sense to me. Why wouldn't a highly educated medical man have made a decent amount of money and has anyone (imagine!) considered that perhaps his wife has a good job? Or maybe there is family money as well. As for some of these other people who became rajas and ranis, I've heard at least one and maybe more had to virtually beg for assistance to pay the million dollar fee. The TM movement is and always been full of idiots. I have my doubts as to whether many could have made it in the real world. I know for a fact they couldn't and didn't. There are so many airy fairy neurotics who crowd into the lineup to see their current favorite guru or who run, feverishly, to jump on some bandwagon that sounds like the next greatest thing. There are many "misfits" and just plain strange human beings on this Earth and we have a small proportion right here on FFL (not to mention over at number 2) who fell into that category and who still appear (as of my last viewing of them before the Great Divide) just as obsessed as ever with the Movement and what it's up to or how they can work out their unresolved feelings about having been screwed by MMY and those who were his "henchmen". You really have to wonder what it would take for many of them to simply move on and make an effort to unencumber themselves from it all. Personally, I sense a kind of addiction - as twisted as it actually is. The irony of it all is many of these obsessors think of themselves as unattached just because they have a negative opinion. It doesn't matter whether one's opinion is negative or positive; as long as you keep obsessing and showing interest you're still very much involved. From: "awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 10:38 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tony Nader's new lot
