Yes, we agree that the stage is being set, in one way or another.   

 And, just to end with another question, do you think that the Pope is being 
manipulated by the Illuminati or Free Masons?  

---In, <jr_esq@...> wrote :



 The Church is now in the state of flux, particularly on the issues raised in 
Amoris Laetitia.  There is a rumor going around that the Pope may disband the 
college of cardinals that would elect the next pope.  So, that would set the 
stage for Pope Francis to appoint his successor to carry out his reforms.  
There is also a strident revival of the "Third Secret of the Fatima", which has 
been around since 1960 or the start of the Vatican II Council.  Specifically, 
this secret has something to do with the Pope being manipulated by worldly 
groups like the Illuminati or the Free Masons.

 Youtube has several videos featuring this Secret of the Fatima.


 ---In, <emily.mae50@...> wrote :

 I agree with much that you say here—the Pope is posing reform—to church 
tradition, policy, and to the flock's way of considering doctrine and belief.   

 You never answered my question re: whether you think this rises to the level 
of the Reformation.  What do you think?  In terms of ways it does and ways it 
doesn't?  Being raised Catholic (which I assume you were), you have an inside 
understanding perhaps?

 Do you think the Pope will abide by the challenge/consensus of this group of 
cardinals out of 228 cardinals? I am sure there are more that disagree with 
where he is going, however I disagree with you on this.  We don't know what the 
flock thinks and I tend to believe that there is a good number that is in full 
support of reform and is not abiding already with some of the stricter rules.  
This Pope is on a mission.  He won't resign.  Will he succeed in his challenge 
to the archaic rules of Communion, etc?  Maybe not in his lifetime, but he is 
setting the stage.  

 Do you really think that he should concede to the cardinals with the platitude 
that the "will of the Holy Spirit" has been done?  

---In, <jr_esq@...> wrote :


 The cardinals who were opposing the Pope Francis reforms posed several 
questions or "dubia" to the pope about the faith doctrines that were 
potentially violated from the letter "Amoris Laetitia".  But the pope did not 
answer these questions, or more likely ignored them.  But the pope did release 
an explanation to the media explaining his rationale in Amoris, which is based 
on conscience.

 IMO, the press and Catholics around the world will have to ponder how this 
factor will affect them individually and as  a part of the church.  In effect, 
Pope Francis has made everyone think.  Will they be the first one to cast the 
stone against the people addressed in the letter Amoris?

 Will the church stay with the written doctrines and tradition of the past?  or 
will they have to consider their own individual conscience to answer the 
questions about divorced Catholics and gay marriages?

 Pope Francis is asking a very thorny question which involve a personal 
question to each member of the faith to answer.

 It may take a while for the final answer to come back.  And, the answer will 
seal the faith and practice  of Catholics for years to come.  IMO, Pope Francis 
will abide by the consensus of the cardinals and will be happy to retire 
knowing that he did the will of the Holy Spirit through the votes of the 
cardinals and the faithful whom they represent.

---In, <emily.mae50@...> wrote :

 There are an estimated ____ Roman Catholics, 40% of which are in Latin 
 "By writing a letter – and then making it public – did the four believe that 
they would corner Francis and get the answer they wanted? It is unlikely that 
he feels cornered. The four cardinals have now placed themselves in a rather 
difficult position. They are but four cardinals out of 228 from 79 countries. 
They are not a majority by any stretch of the imagination.

 Francis is from the global south; the four cardinals are from the north. 
Francis has a specific experience and approach that is not always understood in 
the north. The socio-economic and political situations in Latin America have 
shaped the way this pope thinks. He worked as a bishop – at the coal face – for 
21 years. He understands the problems and struggles of people in the Third 
World. His refusal to see the world in black and white is precisely because of 
his experience of life. The four writers are all from affluent places and 
cultures and certainly would not have the same experience as Francis on the 
 The biggest challenge facing Pope Francis appears not to be the 1.2-billion 
Catholics he leads. His biggest challenge comes from his so-called 
“middle-management” – bishops and cardinals who just do not buy into his new 
vision of a Catholic Church that is welcoming and inclusive. Pope Francis, 
however, while he remains head of the Catholic Church, will continue to 
introduce the reforms the cardinals wanted when they elected him. Maybe they 
did not realize that they too would be part of the reform. "

---In, <jr_esq@...> wrote :


---In, <dhamiltony2k5@...> wrote :


 Pope Francis is apparently stirring the pot for Catholics.  He's saying that 
staid tradition and past church rules are not the sure bet to get  salvation in 
the church.

 He has delivered his message to the youth of the church, when he first became 
the top prelate a few years ago..  And that was to make a real mess of the 
 -- jr

 Wow, the Pope is a Quaker! 

 Francis told the conference that priests must inform Catholic consciences “but 
not replace them.” And he stressed the distinction between one’s conscience — 
where God reveals himself — and one’s ego that thinks it can do as it pleases.


 We have a similar problem with TM conservatives sitting on old policy while 
much of the congregation of the old TM movement has voted with its feet leaving 
a small geriatric group with the dimishing assets of what was the TM movement. 

  Pope Francis (John Hagelin in TM's case?) on Saturday reaffirmed the 
“primacy” of using one’s conscience to navigate tough moral questions in his 
first comments since he was publicly accused of spreading heresy by emphasizing 
conscience over hard and fast Catholic rules.

 Vipers are left fighting at the top. 

---In, <jr_esq@...> wrote :

 relating to heresy.   It looks like the Pope is holding his line to argue 
against the conservatives in his church.  In the end, the individual may have a 
good basis to challenge church doctrine...



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