--- In [email protected], "Alex Stanley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Tom T: > > > > An old politician who had been a chicken farmer for the first 50 > > > > years of his life put it to me this way. Son you have got to learn > > > > you are never going to win when you get in a p*ssing contest with a > > > > skunk. That advice has been ignored from time to time by me and it > > > > has always ended up with me getting p*ssed on. If I remember to > > > > avoid the skunkns in the first place, life is a lot smoother and > > > > sweeter. i have noticed there some here on FFlife who definitaly > > > > fall into that category. Oh well we eventually get it. Tom T > > > > > > You know, Tom, when the only way you can deal > > > with someone who disagrees with you is by > > > dehumanizing them and reducing them in your > > > mind to the status of an animal, you should > > > probably take a step back and ask yourself why > > > it is that you find other human beings so very > > > threatening. > > > > It is fascinating that someone, particularly an enlightened being, can > > negatively characterize others as skunks -- parphrasing -- "skunks > > p*ss all over others" -- and fail to see that their characterization > > parallels that of a skunk -- p*ssing all over others. > > > > And I thought someone in Brahman Consciousness saw all things as > > Brahman. Whose nature is Ananda -- Bliss. Whatever. But is is a shame > > when Brahman wakes up on the wrong side of the loka and is grumpy. > > Sort of puts a gloomy cast of all of creation. > > > > And while some will see some humor and irony in the above, Peter will > > undoubtedly see rage and anger. Seeing himself in all things? > > > > Enlightenment. What a trip! > > > > Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or > conditioned mind?
I think the term "enlightenment" is a label, that serves little positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides. Its quite clear that various people define the term in quite different ways -- those from different "traditions" and even those proclaiming to be living the label. Just today's post illustrates such. Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite sharply disagree on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday. Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened and various traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to is your question about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is a ego in enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly disagrees -- stated emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego can be found -- and it is on this single criteria that he claims enlightenment. (Though ironically, thre is some "individuality" in the "peter-sphere" that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets "bent out of shape" and lashes out in anger.) And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states emphatically, and with even more words than Peter, that there indeed is an ego in enlightenment, but it no longer "rules" like it does pre-enlightnment -- it becomes subordinate to the Self. Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone who thinks there is no ego in enlightenment is insane. And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement. Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far as to say that he simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement, then "realized" that whcih he defined, and then started using the title "enlightenment -- even though his definition was his own and neither a "traditional" one nor the TMO one. And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them. Further Peter, again -- just today -- refers to cc as "baby realization" or baby enlightenment. Yet, if you refer to the archives, you will find a post from Tom where he "ranted" on and on (IMO) in a long post why calling cc as "baby" anything was paraphrasing, stupid, insane and agenda laden. Off cites MMY recently as saying enlightenment is 24 hour bliss. Peter, greatly discounts bliss, repeatedly stating that "bliss is dumb". My own experience of bliss-saturated states in activity is that anger, ego-driven activities, and glomminess (a fairly regular quality of Tom's posts) cannot be found -- and are found "impossible" to arise. Whatever that state is, and/or MMY's "24-hour bliss" enlightenment, clearly they have little to do with Peter's and Tom's experience with whatever they experience and label as "enlightenment" (experience used in broad sense of ' experiencing a state of consciousness' not like 'I experience the flower'). So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the use of the label "enlightenment". And also the phenomenon of self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment. My original comments, abve, on Tom's post are part of my periodic laughter at the ironies, paradoxes and/or inconsistencies sxpressed by so-called self-proclaimed enlightened. Tom proclaims that it is solely Brahman who seees through Tom's eyes, who only sees Brahman in all things, it is Brahman who types through Tom's fingers. So when Tom regularly lashes out in gloom, anger, and silly reasoning, calling people who disagree with him "pissing skunks" and that they should, paraphrasing, "eat shit and die", it makes me laugh. Similar to my laughter when Peter claims "absolutely no ego exists" yet feels deeply insulted at times. And similar to my laughter at the band of self-proclaimed enlightened as they stumble over themselves in expressing contractiory attributes of the assumed (by the casual reader) commonality of the label "enlightenment" (when in fact they are each defining the state in different ways.) Real "Saints", of whom I have had the pleasure of their company, have a common characteristic -- among many things -- that they have a deep and piercing sense of humor, about all things, including themselves. The local band of self-proclaimed enlightened on FFL appear to take themselves so seriously, and don't seem to have much if any ability to laugh at themselves -- and ironies that inevitably arise. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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