--- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I genuinely want to know which techniques out there are > > > > > > > > effortless and do not require concentration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must've missed the "TM is not effortless" thread here > > > > > > > sometime ago. TM is *easy* but not truly effortless. > > > > > > > > > > > > BS. No effort is required to do TM. Some effort may > > > > > > happen on occasssion, and obsessing about how much > > > > > > or how little, if any, is > > > > > > detrimental, but no effort is required. > > > > > > > > > > BS. You're supposed to start by thinking something > > > > > in particular (the mantra). I've practiced techniques > > > > > in which no such artificiality is required. > > > > > > > > Precisely my point. Sheesh you almost get the mpression > > > > these guys > > > > only have ever believed what they are told. > > > > > > Says Vaj, demonstrating without question that he never > > > got the knack of TM. > > > > > > Again: It has nothing to do with "what we were told." > > > That's Vaj's and Barry's standard copout. It has to > > > do with personal experience. > > > > Or lack thereof. > > Just for the purpose of intellectual argument (which > it seems is what you're looking for), let's examine > Vaj's statement above in the context of relative sets > of experience. > > Vaj and I are talking about *contrasting* the effort- > lessness of techniques we have personally practiced > with the supposed effortlessness of TM. We have had > experience of *both* types of meditation. Based on > that *comparative* experience, both of us can comfort- > ably say that other techniques are really effortless, > whereas TM has a subtle degree of effort involved > with it.
And what we're suggesting is that you and Vaj appear never to have experienced TM as effortless, whereas both of us have. (A notion that Maharishi himself is on record > as agreeing with, a fact which both of you choose to > ignore.) We haven't ignored it, of course. We've asked for exactly what he said *in context*, but nobody has been able to come up with that yet. > You and Judy have had experience with only *one* of > them. Based on that, you seem to be claiming that TM > *is* completely effortless. But neither of you has > ever experienced a style of meditation that is *really* > effortless, and that doesn't even involved thinking a > particular thought (the mantra) or "coming back to" > anything (again, the mantra). You're suggesting that thinking the particular thought of the mantra, or coming back to that thought, involves *effort*. We're saying that isn't our experience. Apparently, for you and Vaj, both *do* involve effort. And that's why we say you and Vaj have not experienced TM's effortlessness. > And you're chiding US on our "lack of experience?" Not chiding you, simply pointing out what seems to be the case where TM is concerned. > I would suggest that Vaj is RIGHT ON with his sugges- > tion that your entire stance is based on wHAT YOU > WERE TOLD about TM's supposed effortlessness. You > were told, over and over and over and over, that it > is effortless, and now you can't even *conceive* of > it being any other way. You *interpret* your personal > experience as 'effortlessness,' because you were TOLD > that it was effortlessness. Effortlessness isn't a conception, it's an *experience*. It's impossible to "conceive" of effortlessness; it can only be experienced. It works exactly in reverse from what you speculate: Once you have *experienced* TM's effortlessness, you recognize the description as accurate. Up to that point, the description is meaningless, no matter how many times somebody says it's effortless. You have no experience of > what effortlessness might really BE in the world of > meditation. > > But you're willing to claim that other people, who > HAVE experienced a style of meditation that really > IS effortless, are mistaken and that you are correct. You're incorrect when you say TM is not effortless, yes, indeed. You *may* be correct when you say these other techniques are effortless, but given that you don't seem to have experienced TM as effortless, and that certain questions arise about your description of these other techniques' effortlessness that neither of you appears to be able to respond to, we're skeptical of your claim. > > Doncha just love the humility that TM instills in > its adherents? :-) > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
