---- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@>
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was also wondering what exactly was so spiritually
> > > transformative about observing levitation- I mean if
> > > it really happened.
> >
> > Finally, a point worth dealing with.
> >
> > It's because it makes you deal with your own
> > perceptions and analyze them in a way that most
> > people never have to or get to.

If you woul do so actually. For example in the account you give, you
don't really do this. Nor are you really ready to give it a shot here.
You basically say: thats how it is, take it or leave it.

> > Let's say you see something like levitation,
> > and no one else is around. But you saw it.
> > NOW you've got something interesting going
> > on for you that you didn't have the day before.
> > You have an experience that you can NEVER, in
> > any circumstance, convince others that it
> > happened, or was true. It's subjective. If a
> > video camera had been there at the time you
> > saw it, it might have recorded what you saw
> > and it might not. You'll never know.
> >
> > All you know is that you saw what you saw.

Fine. I am very well aquainted to the Castaneda books, and anyone who
is, will notice the close resemblance of what you experienced, and
even more so, the way you interpret it, to the philosphy in his books.
So, I am not doubting that you saw what you saw, and I think nobody
does. We are not doubting your experience unless somebody thinks you
just made it up. But we are free to be sceptic about the actual
interpretation of it, and to disagree about this has nothing to do
with fear or any malicious attitude to you, as you imply. Just we
disagree about the interpretation, of what you 'saw'.
Any attempt to interpret this disagreement as of a psychologic order
like fear or jealousy virtually amounts to an intolerance of another
persons beliefsystem, which maybe scientific, rational etc. What is so
disagreeble here is the implication that people not only should accept
your own experiences, and the meaning it has for you, but they should
also swallow you interpretation of it, that it really happened, and
that it couldn't be anything like a however induced hypnosis or shared
lucid dream.

I am really wondering about your lack of reflection on this topic, as
you clearly state here how influential it is in your spiritual life.
You speak about moving stars as if you still adhere to a ptolemaic
world-view, and as if stars were mere dots attached to some sphere,
you could freely move about. Did you see the movie 'Bruce almighty',
were Bruce gets to play God just for a week, until he realizes that he
actually messes up everything? Remember how he brings the moon more
closely just to show his wife his love? The downside of it is that the
whole gravitational field goes wild, and there are floodings in Asia.
Now, when you move stars, and you think they are more than just a few
dots moving on some spheres, you actually see huge bodies thousands if
not millions of lightyears away, most of them up to 10 times as big as
our sun, if that was 'real' in any sense of the word, Lenz would
actually have to move these huge bodies not only now at a considerable
distance that is still visible, that is probably thousand of
lightyears away, but he would have to do this very special siddhi also
in the past, because what we see now in the sky is the light emitted
from the stars a few thousand years back. If somebody could do this,
he could just as easily change the whole history of mankind like
through a time-machine, he could make dinosaurus re-appear etc. And
you are actually saying, that if I don't believe this crap, just out
of jealousy for your wonderfull experience, or out of fear that my
worldview might crample? And you type these messages into modern day
computers, which are designed by people who tediously follow physical
laws, and go into planes and use any technical equipment, which has
been developed by strictly applying those physical laws, and the
scientific methodology of repeated tests under the same conditions.

> > Now you get to deal with that, and decide
> > whether to trust your own experience or not.
> > That's a remarkable gift, in my opinion.

But that would be the same for anybody suffering from psychosis (I am
not implying you have one, I am just comparing) In my job, I have to
deal with many people, and I come across again and again with people
having psychotic perceptions. That is these people, much more than you
(I hope ;-)) have to deal with perceptions, that are real to them, but
not to others. That may be a voice in their head or physical
sensations, some people say that their thoughts are being dictated.
They accept their perceptions, many of them, and for most of them its
very hard or impossible to talk them out of it. Thats the most hard!
Not that they accept what they perceive to be real. And its a real
problem to them. So, I still don't know where the spiritual
significance of accepting those perceptions as 'real' is supposed to
be. I have come to the conclusion that a healthy, down to earth
approach is preferable when dealing with this world we live in. To say
it plainly, if man was meant to fly, he would have wings! The world as
it is, is challenging enough, and holds many smaller miracles.It may
be more courages to actually not be attached to any world-view at all,
but you have just demonstrated how little you could let go of your
particular interpretation of these events, to the extent of
'theratening' to leave this group. How about some more social competence?

Also, its not that I am not open to 'other realities'. But I am not
indiscriminate about them. There are many beings in other worlds,
astral or higher. I also made many experiences of lucid dreaming,
especially in my TM time, and I think that anybody who has
experieneced the sense of reality, of seeing hearing, touching and of
course flying in such a dream, knows how fragile our perceptions are,
how in fact unreliable and illusiory. Forexample you can awake within
a dream and still dream, and everything seems real. Its quite common I
think. And it can give you absolutely beautiful sensations. If
somebody does this regularely, I am sure it has a value, it surely is
of value to be able to move around your astral body etc. But here you
are talking about an experience decades in the past, as if it was real
in this reality.

> > Most people don't ever get to deal with it,
> > certainly not those whose closest relationship
> > to paranormal phenomenona is reading about them.

Which is what you did before you had them extensively, a you write in
your book. You say that you have read each of the Castaneda books
several times, I think there are at least 8 of them. So, before having
the experience you have totally absorbed a philosophy, and read about
the very identical type of experienec a hundred times, and you freely
're-enact' these very same events in your experience, and then give me
the very same interpretation, and tell us how hard and innovative it
wa all for you.

> > Having such an experience doesn't make you any
> > better than anyone else. Having to DEAL WITH
> > having had such an experience, IMO, makes one
> > a bit more interesting. Those are the kinds of
> > people I'm looking for to have conversations
> > with.

Sure, if you want to be interesting that is.;-) i am sure you are
interesting Barry, I even thought that we would run into each other
one day, as you are in Europe, but generally speaking, I can't just
evaluate people according to how interesting they are. Some people may
be boring and I still love them.

> > There are a few people here on FFL who have
> > had such subjective experiences, whether it be
> > of odd phenomena or their own subjective exper-
> > iences of higher states of consciousness.  I like
> > dealing with them *because* I can identify with
> > the changes that their subjective experiences and
> > learning to trust them have put them through.

Fair enough. But I can't condemn those who don't have, or have rather
little. Its a mistake to judge people according to their experiences.
Experiences come and go, they are transient. And then there are people
who are not outspoken about them, at least not at public forums, they
may hint at them occassionally. I don#t think at all that one has to
talk about ones experiences.

> > The rest of the people strike me as pretty boring,
> > actually. I mean, LOOK at them! THEIR approach to
> > levitation and such things is that they want it
> > to be a scientific, measurable phenomenon so that
> > there is NO challenge to them when they finally
> > observe it -- it'll be just like everything else
> > in their lives.  Fuckin' wimps, if you ask me...  :-)

No, Barry, they are just reflective in a different way. Much more so
than you. Whats so great about accepting an experiences 'as is' and
not have second thoughts about it? It can be even dangerous to their
health. Lets say somebody hears Guru Dev. It can be true, but it can
also be false. Should he indiscriminately believe in what was said?
You know it could be any being that comes through. My master is very
keen on this that she doesn't channel. That doesn't mean all
channeling is wrong, but a LOT IS! So anybody who says, he channels
Mother Meera is wrong as per her decree! There were even people who
said they got messages from me, and I knew nothing of it! You know
some girl (actually two) who fell in love with me, heard my voice, got
energy-transmissions from me etc. Now I clearly know that I didn't
tell them anything (I followed both up, with both I had long
conversations, one was insightful and very sweet, the other wasn't) I
tell you that I am sad about this. Thats all this channeling fashion,
in an absolutely indiscriminate manner, which makes people open to all
kind of astral influences. Whenever I met people who have this, and
(big AND) have problems agruing from it, I tell them that they should
not attribute any reality to it. Advaita is very good at this: Why
accept all those as REAl they are just lesser realities. So Barry, I
don't have to believe if somebody says he saw the stars being moved.
he is just playing Bruce Almighty. He's playing God without believing
in him.

I am not really refering to other reports here about levitation.
People seemed to have these experiences in a very innocent way
THEMSELVES and can tell how it changed them without having to refer to
worldviews. That sounds fairly authentic to me. Your story reminds me
a little bit about this joke:
There is a country with high illiteracy. Somebody who visits observes
that many people have marks on their arm: one, two or three lines.
What does one line mean: He can read
Two lines: He can write
And three lines: He knows somebody who can read and write.

The followup that you wrote was just childish behaviour. I think you
already changed your mind.

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