"I'd guess you cited the bonobo as evidence against
my speculative suggestion that humans may intuit
"orderliness" and that this intuition may be a
source of their sense of ethics."

No, I liked what you wrote.  I should have said so to avoid my post
sounding like a refutation.

The bonobo's forgiveness rituals are the behaviors that I found
fascinating.
It seemed to be evidence that forgiveness is necessary to allow
primate cultures to exist,
rather then something taught to man by religious thought.

I appreciated your phrase: "I wouldn't
rule out that it comes from an inherent "orderliness"
(in the very-big-picture sense) from which the
universe emerged and which humans intuit. "

I think that can be appreciated from a wide variety of religious and
non-religious perspectives.












--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> >
> > De Waal's work with bonobo chimps has facinating information about
> > primate cultures.  His work Peacemaking Among Primates is a great
> book
> > for finding the roots of many social customs in our ancient past.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067465921X/103-7153482-6367068?
> v=glance&n=283155
>
> Aside from the fact that their societies are
> matriarchal, and that they would apparently
> rather make love than war, of course.
>
> I'd guess you cited the bonobo as evidence against
> my speculative suggestion that humans may intuit
> "orderliness" and that this intuition may be a
> source of their sense of ethics.
>
> However, bonobos are among the very few species of
> non-human animals who have passed the "mirror test,"
> which is thought to be a sign of self-consciousness.
>
> So I suggest that they may also have a primitive
> intuitive capacity that can sense "orderliness."
>
>
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I believed that ethics and morals were like natural laws that
> came
> > > > from God to mankind through the scriptures in each culture.
> > > >
> > > > Now I believe that we choose our ethics while shaped by our
> reason
> > > > and our social contract with others.  Much of this was created
> in
> > > > our primate past as we learned the value of the group and the
> > > > behaviors necessary to live together.
> > > >
> > > > I think under each point of view some people act ethically and
> some
> > > > do not. I don't know which is more effective for helping people
> act
> > > > in a kind way towards others.  I just know what point of view I
> > > > hold and I do my best from that perspective.
> > > >
> > > > So what do you believe?
> > >
> > > I think the scriptural ideas of morality reflect the
> > > ethics of the cultures for which the scriptures were
> > > written.  I think there *may* be some innate human
> > > sense that shapes and reinforces ethical behavior,
> > > and is perpetuated because it's been found to work, but
> > > where that sense came from, I couldn't say.  I wouldn't
> > > rule out that it comes from an inherent "orderliness"
> > > (in the very-big-picture sense) from which the
> > > universe emerged and which humans intuit.
> > >
> > > But the "rules" put forth in scripture that are said
> > > to have been laid down by God I think are just a
> > > (relatively clumsy) approximation of what we intuit of
> > > that "orderliness."
> > >
> > > With that one caveat--that ethical behavior may arise
> > > from some intuition of an abstract "natural law" (but
> > > coming through humans, not some divine lawgiver)--I agree
> > > with everything else you said.
> > >
> >
>






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