--- In [email protected], new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Michael Murphy" <dawnhawk@>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > In a recent zogby poll 42% of those questioned felt the the
> > > government and the 9/11 
> > > > commission were covering up the true story. 
> > > 
> > > And that means?
> > 
> > Only 45% felt that the 9/11 commissions findings were not a
> cover-up. It means that 
> > someone who's opinions are are supported by almost half the
> population doesn't deserve 
> > to be called a lunatic. I'm not saying he's right, but that his
> opinions do deserve respect.
> 
> So does that imply that since only 45% or so of people felt Saddam was
> not connnected to 9/11 deservere respect? Personally, I feel they do
> not. They are ignorant and uniformed.
> 
> 
> > > An opinion about a proposition, particularly by people not well versed
> > > in the evidence, doesn't make the proposition more likely. For
> > > example: i)over 50% of americans at the time of the invasion of iraq
> > > thought  Saddam had something of substance to do with 9/11, or even
> > > orchestrated it himself; 2) take a poll on quantum mechanics basic
> > > findings, or any science, and 90% will beleive incorrect things; 3)
> > > watch Jay Leno's Jay Walk -- lots of people out there are quite
> > > ill-informed, illogical -- even dense. 
> > 
> > In my experience the people who doubt the commission finding have
> looked into the issue 
> > much more deeply than those who accept it a face value.
> 
> All 55%?
> 
> Did these  55% look more closely into the commission findings than the
> 55% who felt Saddam was connected to 9/11 looked into that issue? 
> Or, is the former simply a more cdomfortable feeling for you?
>  
> > > >I would say his views whether correct or not 
> > > > are certainly not lunatic or fringe.
> > > 
> > > Why? Did you hear his reasoning and evidence?
> > 
> > The fact that he is part of a growing movement of people that
> includes almost half of the 
> > public by definition means that he is not on the fringe and lessens
> the likelyhood that he 
> > is a lunatic. 
> 
> And, by avoiding the question, it implies that you did not hear his
> reasoning and evidence. Your statement above imples that no one in the
>  55% could b e ill-informed, have poor reasoning, or even be a
> lunatic. Do you feel the same way about those that felt Saddam was
> connected to or orchestrated 9/11? If not, why?
>   
> > > > Steven Jones professor of physics at Brigham Young U. has done
> > > extensive studies of the 
> > > > destruction of the towers an makes an extremely convincing case for
> > > a precision 
> > > > demolition. 
> > > >Especially for tower seven which wasn't even hit by and airplane. He
> > > claim to 
> > > > have found traces of thermite on steel beams from the towers, pretty
> > > much a smoking gun 
> > > > for a professional demolition job. See:
> > > > http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
> > > 
> > > And no other possible explanation for this?
> > 
> > If it can be shown that the three towers were brough down by
> pre-postioned charges, It 
> > doesn't necessarily mean that the government was involved.
> 
> And one scientist's conclusions make it so? John Haglin will be
> thrilled to hear of this. If Jones' research has great merit, why have
> other scienists not jumped on his band-wagon? Why has the press not
> jumped on this story of the the last 100 years (It certainly swamps
> watergate, Monica, Iran-Contra, Jack Abramoff etc in significance.
> If you counter that the press are part of the conspiracy and/or owned
> by the corporations behind this (or other such conspiratorial drivel,
> IMO), then please provide support for such. 
> 
> > I does make it highly unlikely 
> > that it was the result of a terrorist cell. There are only a handful
> of companies in the world 
> > that have the expertise to bring down down the three towers with the
> precision that they 
> > came down. Most people don't even know that a third tower collapsed.
> > It doesn't get much 
> > attention because it didn't get hit by an airplane.   
> 
> If you a are saying that 'people are not aware the third tower
> collapsed  and thus all the more reason to suspect that the 
>  collapses were'nt cause by the plane impacts and subsequent fires'
> then you get the non-sequitur award of the year. Did you mean
> something different?
> 
> >It would require a 
> > substancial committment of time to read the paper at the URL above.
> But if knowing the 
> > truth about what has happened is at all important to anyone they
> should make the time. 
> 
> Why would one reel reading the URL  reveal the truth? What
> distinguishes this URL  from any number of conspiratorial web sites
> with faulty facts and reasoning -- and which the press has ignored b
> because having looked at it, found it bogus.
> 
> >It 
> > is not a conspiracy theory but a well reasoned challenge to the
> commission report.
> 
> And if so well reasoned, why have other scienists not jumped on his
> band-wagon? Why has the press not jumped on this story? 
>  
> > > How many in his or related
> > > professions agree that his evidence is conclusive, or even credible?
> > 
> > There is now an organization of scientists and engineers who
> question the commonly 
> > accepted story. They are professional who have a lot so loose by
> taking this view, so they 
> > don't do it lightly. There are also a number of high government
> officals who question this 
> > commonly accepted story, including former members of the Bush
> administration.
> 
> cites?
>  
> > If people prefer to accept the commission findings that's fine. 
> 
> 
> Those are only two choices? Accept the commisison or accept your guy?
> 
> >It's their right. But if they 
> > want to look at the evidence with an open mind, that is also a
> persons right. 
> 
> Those are only two choices? Be irrational or spend 5 hours looking at
> your guy?
> 
> I spent 5 hours looking at Spare Change and running down various
> claims, I found a lot of bogus stuff. Not worth the time. Why is your
> guy worth the time when Spare Change was not?
> 
> >The people 
> > who present that evidence should not be called lunatics and be
> removed from his job.
> 
> Is that what the lecturer did? Systematically and objectively looked
> at both sides of the evidence?  
>  
> > Perhaps I am motivated to defend him, because I lost my job and
> career because I 
> > expressed some perfectly reasonable views at MUM. 
> 
> MUM has become a cult IMO. Not a clear comparison to this case, IMO
> 
> > They just didn't happen to be views 
> > consistent with the commonly accepted paradigm there.
> 
> Again, not parallel. But the taste of sour grapes does  help explain
> your irrational exhuberence.

I declare you the winner.
I am signing off of this thread.
Michael






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