--- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That is the kind of mature understanding of ethics that would
> have gotten you bounced out of a position around MMY!  
> Accountability even though enlightened?  Off with her head!

Well, it's all implicit in what MMY teaches.

> I am still stuck on the idea that some actions are so
> intrinsically wrong that they should be construed as
> evidence that a person is just a self-serving bastard
> instead of a saint.  But that is because I feel
> that all the empire builders and guru types seem to have
> the same MO.  They do what they want and justify it.

Even if they're enlightened, they might see that
they can take advantage of the misunderstanding
that an enlightened person cannot do wrong.  Or
they may not understand it themselves.

Or look at it this way: If we assume for the sake
of argument that it's the enlightened person's
*experience* that she is not the author of her
actions (as the Gita says), that it's just the
gunas acting on the gunas (separation of Self and
activity) according to the laws of nature, where
does that leave her?  She isn't really in a position
to say, or even think, that Nature itself is being
unethical.  That notion doesn't compute.

Language gets in the way here...you gotta kinda
squint your eyes to figure it out.

  But in your view a
> guy like Sai Baba could be brought up on criminal charges for 
> touching kids and still be enlightened.

Absolutely.  *Should* be.

  As  long as we are agreed that he does time,
> the enlightened part seems irrelevant to both of us.

All I'm really arguing against is the notion
that you can determine a person's state of
consciousness from their behavior.  Otherwise,
nothing changes; we judge people by their actions,
not by what we believe about their state of
consciousness.

> I know for me I always connected God realization with virtue.

My guess is that it's *usually* the case.  But
there's no way to suss out the exceptions.

   I
> think it is hard for most people who grew up in the West to separate
> the two.  These days I am happy when I find virtues in people.

Which is entirely appropriate.
 
> Enlightened self interest which also benefits others seems
> like a beautiful thing when it happens.

A vastly underutilized resource!

  Then occasionally one monkey really
> does something good for others and I am moved.  I am still 
> influenced by hippie ideals.

Me too.



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