--- In [email protected], Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Mar 4, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote:
> 
> > Vaj - Striving and effort presents an obstacle in TM, Tibetan Dzogchen
> > and the practice of Soto Zen. In fact, striving is counterproductive.
> > According to the Buddha himself, enlightenment cannot be achieved by
> > striving. Here's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher of Dzogchen,
> > who also seems to indicate that you are mistaken.
> 
> 
> I made no comments on Dzogchen, we were discussing Lawson's TM dogmas  
> of effort vs. effortlessness. Sogyal Rinpoche does state it nicely.
> 
> The key to understanding this from a Patanjali POV is to understand  
> the difference between samprajnata samadhi, cognitive samadhi and  
> asamprajnata or acognitive samadhi. The former relies on alambanas or  
> supports (or "supportive factors"). In samprajnata the mind needs an  
> object--either a gross or a subtle one. The objects can be any of the  
> 24 forms of gross and subtle matter or an incarnation of god, etc.  
> These all require effort or subtle effort, usually this involves a  
> "meditator" (one deciding to meditate), a process of meditation (a  
> process) and an object of that meditation (e.g. a mantra). Achieving  
> a calm or transcendent state, where these three unite somewhat, from  
> such means, is effortful even if one successfully transcends as one  
> is still stuck in a subtle chain of action. One has not transcended  
> action or karma.
>

And?

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