Judy: "If you can't just acknowledge and, hopefully, apologize for the bogus comparison, you'd do much better to just keep quiet rather than compound the problem by addressing it dishonestly."
ME: If I can move beyond my reaction of annoyance at once again being called "dishonest"(your overuse of this perspective blocks your ability to understand other points of view here IMO) this post goes to the heart of what interests me about TM beliefs. Since the specific point Jim was making about MMY's spiritual effect on the world is a view that I had myself while in TM, lets dispense with his connection with the ideas. I'll just talk about my own history of beliefs. You are not only NOT seeing the connection with the type of belief that people have about their version of Christianity being the "right" one, you are so vehemently opposed to me making the connection that you want me to apologize for making it. This reaction to what I said is all the more curious because I said it about someone else. Keeping these beliefs distinct is clearly important to you. Since comparing their similarities is important to me this works out well. When I was in TM I had two distinctly different sets of beliefs, those related to my own personal experiences, and ones about the effect of those practices on the world. The ones concerning my personal experiences of altered states of consciousness were based on the experiences themselves and long hours listening to MMY discuss what those experiences meant. The fact that they were unusual and powerful was extremely compelling. They clearly deserved an explanation and MMY was eager to give one, so that worked well for a long time. It was not until I found other explanations that I found more compellingly descriptive of my experiences that I decided that MMY's version was no longer useful. But the second set of beliefs were about things that I could not really experience directly. These beliefs were important because they gave my pursuit of internal experiences a broader context with the rest of the world , other spiritual practices, and history. They included belief in the "MMY Effect" and that, historically speaking, MMY was unique in delivering to the world a science of consciousness, and spiritual practices that were "better" than those offered by other teachers. This belief in his uniqueness is echoed here in almost every post by people who are into TM. It is really rare to find someone express a POV that perhaps MMY is more similar than different to lots of other teachers from India. For example holding him on a par with say Yogananda would be abhorrent to most TMers. They would insist that in some way MMY was a better teacher who had a superior style of meditation. Now how could this be known? How could anyone actually compare how spiritually advanced Yogananda's students were? It is completely impossible. It is also impossible to know that MMY is unique in his meditation system from the thousands of teachers promoting a form of Japa in India. MMY got more famous for a while, but that hardly can be the reason to see his technique as superior. Guru Maharaj-ji, the boy guru, was totally famous also. The fact that most people drop TM should be counter evidence to how much better his technique is to other versions of meditation. It seems as though meditation techniques, like most forms of self-development, are pretty similar. People try them and drop them and none has stood out as so compellingly effective that people stick with it. His insistence that his technique is special in its effortlessness is a distinction he created and then emphasized. I don't' know if it is true or not either in its uniqueness or its importance. The claim that the natural tendency of the mind to seek bliss, and that TM delivers that experience quickly, has not held up. People are not compelled by the TM experience to continue any more than with other practices. In India MMY stood a few yards from me and said, "It was the greatest good fortune for all mankind that I came out (to teach TM)". This is a pretty common belief in TM circles, MMY's historical uniqueness and importance. It is not based on the numbers of people who practice the technique. It is not based on his success in delivering in any of the multitude of promises he has made and failed to achieve concerning the growth of the movement or the numbers of people experiencing what he claims is possible. It is based on faith. Faith that extrapolates from personal experiences that have come true, to areas of belief where experience is not possible, the spiritual effect of MMY's teaching in the world. It extends to beliefs concerning the uniqueness of MMY's approach and success, to teachers someone has no experience with, like Yogananda. I remember telling people in my lectures the MMY line that Yogananda was teaching an airplane but TM was the jet. How could anyone possible know this? By faith in MMY. So I hope this makes it clear why, for me, the belief that many Christians hold about their particular sect being so superior to other sects of Christianity that they will uniquely be deserving of eternity in heaven, is similar to the common TM belief that MMY is a unique historical figure, who is teaching the best spiritual advancement technique in the history of mankind. Also that his small number of followers are so spiritually advanced in their practice that their special subjective experiences are profoundly changing mankind's life on earth. They are both based on faith without the possibility of direct experience, an authority based epistemology that provides a set of beliefs as well as the epistemological criteria for evaluating their truthfulness. (The Bible says its true, the Vedas verify our experiences) Both sets of beliefs make the believer feel special about themselves, their place in the world and history. They are among the very few humans in history who were able to hear the call and respond to it. And they will unequally enjoy unlimited spiritual rewards for their chosen beliefs and experiences. As I heard Jesus say while in my previous incarnation, "Many are cold but few are frozen", ( I might have the details wrong, I was in the back of the crowd and he had no mike) (thank you "Life of Brian") Hopefully this discussion about beliefs outside the emotional charge of either Jim's beliefs or your own facilitates the discussion. You have mentioned before that you don't hold all of the beliefs I have listed, and some are put in a "let's see box". I wont assume what beliefs you have chosen from the many MMY offers. But this is why I equate many beliefs TMers hold on faith with those held by Christians. --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > Judy, You understand the problems with the lack of evidence in the > > assertion. I am disappointed to see your support for his taking a > > personal shot at me in the context of a discussion of ideas. > > Has nothing to do with whether there is evidence > for Jim's assertion, and you know it. It isn't > even about supporting Robert's shot at you. > > You're trying to make it something that you > can self-righteously bluster about because you > can't defend your equation of what Jim said > with fundies (or Catholics, makes no difference) > claiming everyone but them is going to hell. > > Your entire response here is disgracefully > disingenuous. You know what the problem is. > Jim, Robert, and I have all pointed it out. > > If you can't just acknowledge and, hopefully, > apologize for the bogus comparison, you'd do > much better to just keep quiet rather than > compound the problem by addressing it > dishonestly. > > > > > > > > > Jim "> > However, someone had to revitalize the spiritual momentum > of the > > > > world. The religions weren't doing it. The fact that it is > Maharishi > > > > and Guru Dev doesn't matter much. It could have been anyone > else. > > > > Reality check: Its just that it wasn't, though Yogananda did a > great > > > > job of softening up the soil in the West so to speak." > > > > Me: The belief that MMY is unique in the ability to "revitalize the > > spiritual momentum of the world" by a member of his tiny group does > > remind me of the people who believe that they out of all the people > on > > the planet have the spiritual specialness to go to heaven because of > > their beliefs. The mechanism of inflating personal specialness is > > identical, only the content of the belief is different. In each > case > > the person believes that they are intrinsically special due to their > > beliefs and subjective experiences. I am not misstating the claim, > I > > am disagreeing with it exactly as it was stated and comparing it to > > another example of that type of assertion by similarly sincere > > religious people. > > > > By all means bring on the evidence for the claim of > MMY "revitalizing > > the spiritual momentum of the world" while Yogananda was merely > > "softening the soil", Judy. > > > > Neither your phrase, "grossly and insultingly misstated", nor > > > > Judy: "As Robert correctly noted, this is the type of > > > deliberate, malicious distortion we see from > > > people like Karl Rove; decent people are at a > > > loss to find an explation for it." > > > > take the place of evidence for the claim, and they don't distract me > > from the lack of it. But I would love to hear how "decent" people > > might come to the conclusion that my pointing out the lack of > evidence > > for the assertion makes "decent people" compelled to claim that my > > sexual energy is misdirected, whatever that means. (nice but > slippery > > touch dropping his misdirected sexual energy charge, it made him > seem > > so much more "decent" while making a personal attack in response to > a > > discussion of religious beliefs.) > > > > I was comparing the style of thinking with other sincere religious > > people ( I was thinking of Catholics, but many Christian sects > > believe they will uniquely go to heaven, the "fundies" assumption > was > > your own invention) Robert, and now you, are comparing my > skepticism > > to these claims and pointing out a similarity to other religious > > people's beliefs to a reviled character in politics. So unless you > > feel that your belief in MMY's claims are so totally special that > even > > making a comparison to other religious people's beliefs is "grossly > > and insultingly misstated", you can hold the faux outrage and the > > phony "decent people" routine. > > > > Karl Rove! Decent people! Misdirected sexual energy! Oh my! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > "Perhaps it has to do with misdirected sexual energy?" > > > > > > > > If you had any evidence to support the claim I was challenging > then > > > > you wouldn't need to make degrading personal comments. Casting > > > > aspersions on me personally doesn't help your cause, it just > reveals > > > > your own limitations in a discussion of ideas. > > > > > > I think he was referring to the fact that you > > > grossly and insultingly misstated what Jim had > > > said about MMY and Guru Dev, equating it with > > > fundies claiming "they alone will go to heaven > > > while people believing a slightly different > > > version of the same myth will suffer in hell." > > > > > > As Robert correctly noted, this is the type of > > > deliberate, malicious distortion we see from > > > people like Karl Rove; decent people are at a > > > loss to find an explation for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Robert Gimbel" > <babajii_99@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > (snip) > > > > > "This kind of spiritual oneupmanship certainly isn't > > > > > > restricted > > > > > > > to MMY's tiny group. Think of the spiritual arrogance at > the > > > > > > basis of > > > > > > > huge factions of Christianity believing that they alone > will > > > go to > > > > > > > heaven while people believing a slightly different > version of > > > the > > > > > > same > > > > > > > myth will suffer in hell for their lack of growing up in > > > > > > the "right" > > > > > > > version. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But they all fall in the category of pretending to "know" > > > things > > > > > > that > > > > > > > you couldn't possibly know. It is a self inflation of > value > > > > > > > relegating poor Yogananda to fluffer status in this > spiritual > > > > > > > regeneration skin flick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, you are saying that I have at least a 50 percent chance > of > > > > > being > > > > > > completely correct? And you have an equally 50% chance of > being > > > > > > completely wrong, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And where did you get this notion that what I said is anything > > > > > > remotely like the TM folks go to heaven and the rest go to > > > hell? > > > > > > That implied exclusivity is something Turq brought up also. > I > > > don't > > > > > > get it. I have never implied or assumed anything like > that. :-) > > > > > > > > > > Well, I guess you could declare that the -Ego~ made me do it. > > > > > > > > > > -Take a perfectly good explanation, and somehow polarize it. > > > > > In a way, we are so used to polarization, these days. > > > > > -Karl Rove, who guided the Bushes into the WH, is a master of > > > this > > > > > type of thing... > > > > > -Perhaps it has to do with misdirected sexual energy? > > > > > Who knows, but if you asked Sigmund??, you know what he would > > > say... > > > > > So, who knows? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > > > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > > > > > "Perhaps it has to do with misdirected sexual energy?" > > > > > > > > If you had any evidence to support the claim I was challenging > then > > > > you wouldn't need to make degrading personal comments. Casting > > > > aspersions on me personally doesn't help your cause, it just > reveals > > > > your own limitations in a discussion of ideas. > > > > > > I think he was referring to the fact that you > > > grossly and insultingly misstated what Jim had > > > said about MMY and Guru Dev, equating it with > > > fundies claiming "they alone will go to heaven > > > while people believing a slightly different > > > version of the same myth will suffer in hell." > > > > > > As Robert correctly noted, this is the type of > > > deliberate, malicious distortion we see from > > > people like Karl Rove; decent people are at a > > > loss to find an explation for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Robert Gimbel" > <babajii_99@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > (snip) > > > > > "This kind of spiritual oneupmanship certainly isn't > > > > > > restricted > > > > > > > to MMY's tiny group. Think of the spiritual arrogance at > the > > > > > > basis of > > > > > > > huge factions of Christianity believing that they alone > will > > > go to > > > > > > > heaven while people believing a slightly different > version of > > > the > > > > > > same > > > > > > > myth will suffer in hell for their lack of growing up in > > > > > > the "right" > > > > > > > version. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But they all fall in the category of pretending to "know" > > > things > > > > > > that > > > > > > > you couldn't possibly know. It is a self inflation of > value > > > > > > > relegating poor Yogananda to fluffer status in this > spiritual > > > > > > > regeneration skin flick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, you are saying that I have at least a 50 percent chance > of > > > > > being > > > > > > completely correct? And you have an equally 50% chance of > being > > > > > > completely wrong, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And where did you get this notion that what I said is > anything > > > > > > remotely like the TM folks go to heaven and the rest go to > > > hell? > > > > > > That implied exclusivity is something Turq brought up also. > I > > > don't > > > > > > get it. I have never implied or assumed anything like > that. :-) > > > > > > > > > > Well, I guess you could declare that the -Ego~ made me do it. > > > > > > > > > > -Take a perfectly good explanation, and somehow polarize it. > > > > > In a way, we are so used to polarization, these days. > > > > > -Karl Rove, who guided the Bushes into the WH, is a master of > > > this > > > > > type of thing... > > > > > -Perhaps it has to do with misdirected sexual energy? > > > > > Who knows, but if you asked Sigmund??, you know what he would > > > say... > > > > > So, who knows? > > > > > >
