--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> > wrote: > > So we're back to the first question I ever asked you, > > Ron. What are the criteria that you use when someone > > tells you that they're enlightened, and you choose to > > *believe* them? > > > > *Other than* the desire for a simple answer to a simple > > question, and the desire to be "less confused," what is > > it that makes you assume that the person who just gave > > you the simple answer gave you a *truthful* answer? > > > > I think if you ponder this you'll come back with "faith." > > An interesting and provocative statement—that we confirm our belief > with regard to another's enlightenment primarily with faith. > > Faith for me plays a central role in my ongoing spiritual journey, > but not in answering this particular question about whether or not > someone is enlightened. Rather, faith comes in when my rational mind > is pitted against my intuition. More specifically when intuitively I > know what I must do in order to move my life forward, and yet all > purely rational conclusions end either in contradiction or fear. So > I gather my faith together like a parachute overhead, take a flying > leap into the Infinite, and hope for a soft landing. > > The faith component in my ongoing spiritual journey is an intuitive > sense that with a focused desire, I will find my way; I will find > those who I am meant to find to progress on my path, and they will > say and do the things most beneficial for me, and it all works out > pretty seamlessly, albeit painfully sometimes (lol- joke's on me!). > > I am aware of my tendency to over think and over plan and second > guess the next step forward, for just about anything. And because > spiritual decisions tend to be so core-oriented and comprehensive, > there is possibly a big tendency to over-think, over-plan, and > second-guess such decisions. So I have worked hard at balancing such > mental inspection with a good dose of just going along with it. > Somewhere in between the two I've evolved a way that is both > intelligent and grounded, and I'm sticking with it. > > Have I achieved my spiritual goals as a result? Absolutely. Has it > taken shape completely differently than I would've imagined it? > Absolutely. > > As far as the question about whether or not someone is enlightened, > my assessment has always been more pragmatic, along the lines > of, "will this person advance my knowledge on my ongoing spiritual > journey?". How I have always arrived at an answer on this one is > based on how it feels. You know that common expression for why > someone hesitates: "It just didn't feel right"? > > I use the same sort of sense when determining how to move forward > spiritually. Its always an experiential thing with me. The specific > question of whether or not someone is enlightened actually never > came up for me, until I knew what enlightenment was experientially. > And again the answer for such a question is on the basis of feeling, > and the exposition on this answer occurs outside the boundaries of > my gross senses and bodily limitations; tools and skills must > be "borrowed" from GC and UC in order to arrive at an instantaneous, > definitive answer here. And I'll just stop there for now. :-) > I am not sure what you are saying here but it looks like your beliefs do not include with it having a Guru right now. My belief is that one wouldn't need a Guru if they are speaking from this level of being, otherwise when using intuition, then it is colored by the ego, it is a sticking place, one gets stuck. Phenomina is thought to be it, the goal is mistaken.
It is ego delighted to proclaim I can do it on my own as Ramana did. It is ego fighting tooth and nail to stay on it's throne. For with a sat Guru, one will be following the instructions, and one may think they will loose their freedom. Visions, hearing voices, deep God revelations, deep Bliss, siddhis to know things- these are sign posts that are so often mistaken as the Goal. The sat Guru knows where one is, the one with these experiences that is seeking does not but may think he does. Again, these are my beliefs really, I am not speaking from that level of Being, only voicing my opinion. MY opinions are surely influenced by the path I am on now as I found the Guru to be expressing the truth, I think she speaks from Truth, it is simple and to the point.
