I ask the same question- are the ones commenting here speaking from Being or about it. Not that your answer is proof positive of anything, I have been with Ones claiming enlightenment and it wasn't so, yet no way anyone can convince them otherwise
It was explained to me that when one has a glimpse of samadi, or sidhis such as knowing whatever there is to be known, or other sidhis, visions, lights- this is developed way before enlightenment. There is a tradition where the guru works one to one with the sadaka- if the sadaka is on his own, then as has been seen many times by now, will declare himself enlightened when certain experiences come about, yet it is far from realization. This ends up to be a very sad situation as the sadaka will not progress any further without the guru being there. It was explained to me that a sat guru would not allow his disciples to be on their own to figure out where they are and what they need to do. If it is a real Guru - disciple relationship, the Guru will be observing to see how the path is being digested and what is needed to bring the sadaka to completion. --- In [email protected], Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Two different definitions of mind is what is causing > this confusion. When Ramana refers to mind I think he > means the "I" thought, the source of the delusion of > individuality. I agree with hyperbolic here. In > Realization the death is of the "I" and "me". There is > just consciousness without any space or time boundary. > The "I" and "me" of waking state just disappears. Pop! > "You" can't locate a "you" any place at all. The mind > still functions though but now it is a subtle object, > not "you" anymore. That consciousness is what "you" > are. But now that "you" has no boundary and is > completely "transparent" and limitless; unlocalized > but not in space and time! Just pure awareness. > > --- hyperbolicgeometry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --thanks, I have that book; but he's incorrect: the > > mind doesn't die. > > An "I" associated with mind-identification dies. > > Mind was a medium > > by which the message of Sri Lakshmana was conveyed > > to David Godman. > > Therefore, it's very much alive. Also, shortly > > after Lakshmana > > realized the Self, he went to Ramana and handed him > > a piece of paper > > saying "I have realized the Self". Ramana then > > smiled in a silent > > acknowledgement. Again, mind was part of a process > > through which the > > message was conveyed. It was alive before his > > Realization and also > > afterwards. False identification died, not the mind. > > > > > > - In [email protected], "Ron" > > <sidha7001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The Non-Dual Viewpoint on mind, levels, vision > > > > > > The following is a quote from Sri Lakshmana Swami, > > a realized > > devotee of Ramana > > > Maharshi, from "No Mind - I Am The Self; The Lives > > and Teachings of > > Sri Lakshmana > > > Swamy and Mathru Sri Sarada", (p.102-3) by David > > Godman. > > > > > > Question: What are the different stages or levels > > of the mind that > > one passes through > > > before realising the Self? > > > > > > Sri Lakshmana Swami: Mind is only thoughts. The > > more easily you can > > be without > > > thoughts, the nearer you are to a direct > > experience of the Self. To > > make the mind die you > > > must deprive it of thoughts. The effortless > > thought-free state is > > the highest level of > > > practice. > > > > > > There are no states or degrees of realization, > > there are only > > stages of spiritual practice. > > > The final stage of sadhana is this effortless > > thought-free state. > > If this state can be > > > maintained, then the "I" will sink into the Self > > and it will > > experience the bliss of the Self. > > > These experiences are only temporary; the "I" will > > continue to > > reassert itself until the > > > moment of realization. Realization can only happen > > in this > > effortless thought-free state, > > > for it is only in this state that the Self can > > destroy the "I"- > > thought. The "I"-thought, which > > > is the mind, must die completely before > > Self-Realization occurs. > > > > > > Question: How is one to make the mind die? > > > > > > Sri Lakshmana Swami: The mind can never eliminate > > itself without > > the grace of the Self. > > > The mind is afraid of its own death; it will not > > do anything to > > endanger its own existence. > > > It is like the theif who poses as a policement in > > order to catch > > himself because he > > > ultimately wants to escape. SImilarly with the > > mind. The mind will > > engage in sadhana, > > > thinking it wants to destroy itself, but as soon > > as the mind starts > > to sink into the Heart, a > > > great fear arises which prevents the mind from > > completely > > subsiding. This fear is part of > > > the mind's self-defence mechanism, and you will > > never overcome it > > by effort alone. It is > > > because of this that you need the grace of the > > Guru. When you > > concentrate on the name > > > and form of the Guru, or try to be without > > thoughts, the grace of > > the Guru calms the mind > > > and helps it to overcome the fear which would > > otherwise prevent it > > from completely > > > subsiding. > > > > > > Question: Whyis it necessary for the mind to die? > > > > > > Sri Lakshmana Swami: The mind must die, there is > > no other way to > > realize the Self. Some > > > people say that complete equanimity of mind is > > Self-Realization, > > but this is not true. > > > Thius > > > is only a stage one passes through on the way to > > Self-Realizaiton. > > Other people say that > > > seeing the Self or God everywhere is > > Self-Realization, but this is > > not true either. To see the > > > Self everywhere there must be an "I" who sees, and > > while that "I" > > exists the mind will also > > > exist. The jnani does not see anything because the > > seeing entity in > > him has died. In the > > > Self, there is no seeing, only being. When the > > mind still exists > > one can reach a stage where > > > one can see the whole world as a manifestation of > > the Self, but > > when the mind dies, there > > > is no one who sees and no world to be seen. > > > > > > If you have a mind then the earth, the sky, and > > the stars will > > exist, and you will be able to > > > see them. When the mind dies there will be no > > earth, no sky, no > > stars, and no world. The > > > world of objects, names, and forms is only the > > mind, and when the > > mind dies, the world > > > dies with it. Only the Self then remains. > > > > > > Seeing everything as the Self gives the impression > > that the Self is > > equally distributed > > > everywhere. This is also an idea in the mind. When > > the mind finally > > dies you realize that > > > there is no distribution and no everywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Or go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > http://search.yahoo.com/search? fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz >
