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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
(Ardy Robertson)
2. Re: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on Stanzolol
(dlg...@windstream.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 21:57:29 -0500
From: "Ardy Robertson" To: Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW:
Continued Improvement for Bogey on
Stanzolol
Message-ID: <005501d21deb$0c645df0$252d19d0$@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Well I live in Osseo, Wisconsin ? and the Osseo Vet Clinic
prescribed it for me. They did not have a source for it, but I
located one online for them, and the vet who is no longer there,
would fill in a form online and order it, then I paid for it with
a credit card and it shipped to my house with one refill. After
that refill, the vet had to request it online again. The
compounding pharmacy I found online was wonderful ? they are
called Diamond Back Drugs. I believe it is
www.diamondbackdrugs.com and they are physically located in
Arizona.
The Animal Wellness Center in Mondovi, Wisconsin SAID they would
get it for me, only after I begged for it for weeks, but then they
never quite got around to finding a source for it, and when I gave
them the name of the Diamond Back Drug Company, they never quite
got around to ordering it. So I changed to the Osseo Vet Clinic.
I do believe the other vets at the Osseo Vet Clinic would
prescribe it for me because they were all aware Tigger was ?using?
:) and they knew that he made fantastic progress while on it. I
just didn?t get him started on it earlier enough and I did not
know to give him Doxycycline until it was too late. I think I
would demand Doxycycline for him if I had it to do over again
because I believe Amani is probably the most knowledgeable about
this dreadful disease that the vets have no answer for other than
euthanization.
That?s my 2 cents worth.
Ardy
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On
Behalf Of Amy Glunt
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 9:07 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
Stanzolol
I think it would be really great if we could all compile a list of
vets that prescribe the stanzolol, perhaps by state. That would be
a really great resource for people who are looking for this
information. I'm calling around my city tomorrow to see if I can
find any vets who will prescribe it for my cat.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 1, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Sherri Godschalk > wrote:
Had to shorten this?hope it doesn?t post twice as it went to the
moderator because of size.
Good to know about the liver test. I will NOT mention it to my
vet.
Since this whole process has started for Bogey and I, I often
wonder what logic is used when saying that the side affects from
taking the Stanzolol are liver issues, but the side effect of not
taking it, is death. I know for me personally, if I was sick and
facing this decision, I know what I would do without question.
Believe it or not, I read that exact paper you are describing when
Bogey was first prescribed the Stanzolol. (Google search) I felt
pretty defeated (although many of the terms were over my head)
after reading it. I did not notice the dosages though. Doesn?t
sound like a very scientific study does it. Maybe we should start
our own. Post the names of vets who are willing to prescribe it as
well as the results each person has with their pet that is taking
it. There again, I am way out in front of myself here because
Bogey is not thriving but she did just run into the room with a
Q-tip in her mouth (her favorite toy) and 60 days ago she could
barely walk into the r
oom without laying down. She has also steadily gained weight.
Over a pound which doesn?t sound like much but she barely weighed
5 pounds to begin with. Life is still happening here.
It does seem like there is secrecy surrounding vets prescribing
Stanzolol. Almost like I am scoring some heroin or something. (no
I am not a drug user) From what you found with your other cat,
clearly this could be a positive choice for inoperable tumors, and
or life extending treatment for senior pets. At any rate, I feel
luckier each day that my current vet values the life of my cat
enough to try to save her. It sounds like your vet is terrific and
that you have a great, long relationship with them. I hope to have
the same, one day.
Sherri
From: Felvtalk > on behalf of Amani Oakley >
Reply-To: >
Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 8:29 PM
To: "felvtalk@felineleukemia.org " >
Subject: [Felvtalk] FW: FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
Stanzolol
Sherri
I wouldn?t recommend you run the liver enzymes. If they rise (and
they often do) it will cause your vet to try to get you to stop
the Winstrol.
I was running a full biochemistry profile along with the full
haematology profile on Zander. So tests like ALP, AST, ALT, TBili
and DBili are indicators of liver function. With Zander, they rose
sharply, but there was simply no other option but to continue. I
had done all my research, tried out the two most likely new and
promising therapies (LTCI and Interferon) and they were not at all
(I mean AT ALL) helpful. So, discontinuing the Winstrol meant
certain death for Zander. I am so glad I ignored the liver
enzymes. They settled down on their own, and Zander never had any
liver problems after almost a FULL YEAR on Winstrol.
I had another cat with a nasal sarcoma, who was 16 when she got
the sarcoma and a tiny skinny thing. I put her on Winstrol because
again, there were no really good options. Again, I had a great
response, with it upping her appetite dramatically, and keeping
the sarcoma in a shrunken state with far less discharge and
swelling than prior to the administration of the Winstrol. Her
liver enzymes went through the roof and the vet (a very good
friend of mine who is the head of vet oncology and a brilliant
man) knowing how I feel about Winstrol, just asked if I would
agree to discontinue the Winstrol to see if the liver enzymes
would reduce. (Very gently. He knew he was on thin ice.) I did,
for a few weeks, then put her back on. She lived to age 19 with
that sarcoma, because the Winstrol kept her eating, and happy and
strong.
One of the smart folks on this chatline, recently sent me what was
likely the stupid vet research publication which likely started
the whole ?liver? scare. Look it up because I cannot attach it to
this email as it will not go through. The title is,
?Hepatotoxicity of stanozolol in cats? by Kenneth R. Harkin, et.
al. in JAVMA, Vol. 217, No. 5, September 1, 2000. Bizarrely, in
this study, the authors put the cats on a ?loading dose? of 25 mg
intramuscularly, then 2 mg a day by mouth, every 12 hours. So,
just for starters, you see that for some reason, they started the
cats on TEN TIMES the normal dose, and them kept them on at least
TWO TIMES the normal dosefor the rest of the study. Even then,
here are some telltale pieces of information:
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 2:29:17 -0500
From: To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
Stanzolol
Message-ID: <20161004032917.EGY3O.934.root@pamxwww04-z01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
With some vets we have to get aggressive for the sake of our
babies. Either that or change vets. My problem is that being in a
small town, we don't have may vets to choose from. My current vet
seems more agreeable than the last one plus she is not always out
on a farm call when I need her.
---- Ardy Robertson wrote:
Hi Sherri - when you go in again why don't you just ask the vet
to humor you
and let you try doxycycline just so that you can feel like you
tried
everything for Bogey. Maybe he will give in if you keep asking.
When I
changed vets during Tigger's treatment I told them flat out that
I was going
to be a steady customer for a while and I wanted all 4 of the
vets to be
aware of Tigger's condition and to please give me what I needed.
I told them
that Amani was helping me and basically that I wanted to call the
shots and
they were okay with it (to my surprise). I am normally a very
mild-mannered
person but when it came to my Tigger Baby's life, I was bold!!
Thank you
again Amani - we almost succeeded with Tigger, and if I had
gotten the
Winstrol sooner I think we would have :)
Ardy
From: Felvtalk [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On
Behalf Of
Sherri Godschalk
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 6:54 PM
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
Stanzolol
Oh my gosh Amani! What an incredible story. The chances that he
could
survive from where he was. I cannot imagine the joy you felt when
you saw
his gums were pink. What a long road for the both of you. Says so
much about
you. So your vet knew of the treatment but was afraid of it.
Hopefully the
next FELV cat they saw in their office, they remembered the
success that you
experienced and prescribed accordingly. How lucky that you had
the knowledge
you did, the confidence to respectfully challenge the ones
telling you there
was no hope. Zander was one lucky kitty.
I can't say that I don't worry about the side effects of the
drugs Bogey is
taking. But I understand that he has to survive THIS first. I am
not so sure
that my vet has anything against using Doxycicline as much as he
just
doesn't see a need for it yet. What test was run on Zander to
check the
liver enzymes you mentioned?
Getting the message out about this drug and it's positive
response in FELV
anemic cats is something I truly hope happens. When my vet gave
me this pill
for Bogey, I had no idea what it was. He told me it was a steroid
that body
builders take. I ran home, gave the cat the pill, sat down at my
computer
and Googled "Felv Stanzolol" and this site came up. I have
written a bit
about my experience thus far here, and on a Facebook page for FIV
and FELV
cats. But it makes me feel bad for the people that read it and
get hopeful,
go to their vets and get the "doesn't help", "bad for livers" or
just "No".
I know it is very early in Bogey's treatment and she may not
continue to get
better with just what she is taking. But I am glad for every
moment that I
have with her. I hope I have hundreds and thousands more.
Thanks for sharing the story about Zander. Amazing.
From: Felvtalk >
Reply-To:
Date: Friday, September 30, 2016 at 6:11 PM
To: "felvtalk@felineleukemia.org "
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] FW: Continued Improvement for Bogey on
Stanzolol
Yes, Sherri. There's no question this is a frustrating,
devastating disease,
made far far worse by vets lacking in knowledge, and committed to
just
putting down FeLV cats. Sherri, Zander's haematocrit was actually
down to 5
initially, and he had to be placed in an oxygen tent because his
haemoglobin
was so low his body would have had trouble transporting oxygen to
the cells
in his body. I gave him blood transfusions initially, but could
see that
they were only temporary stopgaps, and after the second one, he
had a
reaction, so I was told he couldn't have any more transfusions,
as the next
one would kill him. As a former medical technologist, I knew that
to be
true. (In Canada, they didn't test for blood type at the time -
don't know
if they do now.)
After trying Zander on a course of Interferon and a course of
LTCI (or
whatever it is called - I always mix up the letters), I totally
by chance,
opened up my drawer and rummaged through it in desperation
because his
haematocrit had dropped from a high of 16 after his second blood
transfusion, back down to 10, and I knew I was going to lose him
soon. He
was on Doxycycline and Prednisone, but it wasn't doing a thing
for his cell
lines, which were all depressed - with the most critical being
the red
cells/haematocrit numbers. Imagine my total surprise when, after
I gave him
some old Winstrol I found in the drawer, I started noticing his
ears and
gums taking on a pink hue and when I tested him 3 days after
starting the
Winstrol, the haematocrit had gone up instead of steadily down.
My surprise grew, and finally overcame my skepticism (I mean,
really, what
are the odds that I discovered a cure???) and Zander's results
kept slowly
but steadily rising for months and months until he was finally
out of danger
and then into the normal reference range for all his results.
Then, after a year, when I told the internal specialist who had
very kindly
told me there was no hope with this disease, imagine my shock
that he KNEW
about Winstrol and said that I had gone "old-school" and this has
been
something they used to use for this disease until "word" spread
that the
drug could cause liver damage!
Frankly, after reading about all the experiences of so many
people in this
situation, I realize how lucky I am. Because of my background in
health
care, my very long relationship with my vet clinic (which I would
often
diagnose things before them and/or I would identify problems they
hadn't
seen) AND very likely, my prickly personality/refusal to take no
for an
answer, my vets were good enough to back off and let me do my
thing. They
recognized that, OBVIOUSLY, they had nothing to offer me if the
Winstrol
didn't work. They faithfully tried the Interferon and the LTCI at
my
request, and ran the weekly bloodwork, and agreed that there were
no
positive effects. They saw the positive effects with the
WInstrol. They
tried on a few occasions to talk me into discontinuing or
reducing the
Winstrol when the liver enzymes increased, but after what Zander
had been
through - being on the brink of death - I was not open to
discussing this
option. On a few occasions I would reduce the Winstrol briefly,
only to see
his haematology drop. I would then hold my breath for a few days
or weeks,
to let the liver enzymes settle a bit, before getting him back on
the
WInstrol. However, I don't think any of the vets were prepared to
argue with
the obvious success. They had seen the unbelievably low
haematocrit and red
cell count, for themselves.
I just don't know how we can get this message across to
mainstream vets.
This is NOT an evil drug which must be avoided at all costs. I
wish I could
address a vet convention. If I had LITTLE TIME, I would write a
paper and
submit it for publication in a vet publication.
I get angered when I hear about all the trouble everyone has,
getting some
Winstrol for their cats, despite the desperate circumstances the
cats are
in.
Sherri, the odd thing for you is that your vet is okay with the
Winstrol but
not the Doxycycline. Really bizarre!
No wonder underground markets flourish. It just shouldn't be this
hard to be
at least given an opportunity and a bit of hope to save our cats.
Amani
My " problem" guy...? Yogi..... is not progressing much with his
Corneal Ulcer and I have found a vet that is willing to remove
his eye for a VERY reasonable price ( Hundreds less than the
quotes that I have gotten in my area.....? I neglected to ask if
there was an abbreviated version that might not be as extensive
as the full removal of Eyeball and surrounding musculature given
the extreme difference in price....
