On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 1:57 PM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote:
At 11:19 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 10:34 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote:
At 9:51 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 9:03 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote:
I also do not use the chord scale theory as a basis for
improvisation nor in my playing neither in my teaching, simply
because I think good melodies are made of chord tones plus non-
harmonic tones, and those can be either diatonic or cromatic
ones. Not all notes of a melody need to be from the "chord
scale". Also, there is no time in improvisation, specialy when
chords change fast, to play a full scale for each chord; and
picking up scale tones at random won't work either in building
a good melody.
If you say that good melody notes can be diatonic or chromatic
ones, then you use chord scale theory. Chord scale theory only
tells us which notes are more likely to be considered as
"diatonic" rather than "chromatic" and gives us an easy way to
practice them. After a while, we just know them and don't worry
about it much any more.
Christopher
Unless I'm mistaken, chord scale theory says if you are in Cmaj
you use C major scale for CMaj7, dorian mode for Dm7 phrygian for
Em7, lydian for FMaj7, etc. What I say that all diatonic non-
harmonic tones for all those chords come from the C major scale.
You build your improvisation with chord tones from those chords
plus passing tones, neighbooring tones, scale runs, whatever...
from the C major sale only, or cromatic notes. To say that the
phrygian mode gives me the diatonic notes for the Em7 chord in
Cmajor is redundant, don't you think?
Harold
I don't know about "redundant", but it gets a lot more useful when
talking about the kinds of chords we were discussing. What scale
is considered to be "diatonic" on an Fm chord in the key of C
major? F melodic minor is a good one, but there are cases to be
made for F dorian, C harmonic minor (starting from F, of course,
if we are talking about chord scales) and that weird scale I don't
know the name for, like an F lydian but with A flat.
On Bb7 in Cmajor it is a split between using a passing E or
passing Eb, and chord scale theory helps up with these less-
obvious choices (it depends on context.)
We were particularly talking about m7(b5) chords, which on a II
chord in minor work nicely with locrian, but as a VI chord in
minor or as a II chord in MAJOR might be better with locrian maj2.
Christopher
Sorry, on your original example again, it depends on context. E
phrygian on Em7 might seem obvious in the key of C, but what about
bar 3 of Satin Doll? E Dorian is a perfectly playable scale there,
on that chord, and we aren't even into Freddie Hubbard territory
yet. I still think there is a lot of chord scale theory that can
help us.
_______________________________________________
Fm in C major:
Diatonic notes are from C minor scale from which it is borrowed,
except if it has a maj7, as in FmMaj7, but then it is obvious you
need to substitute E for Eb, making it an F melodic minor, up and
down. If there is no mention of 7th in the symbol, you may use
either scale in improvisation, since you can imply wathever 7th you
want added to the chord, because there is no other melody going on.
Em7 in Satin Doll
You might have a point there. But you still can use F natural in
the second Em7, as it goes to Dm7 via its secondary dominant. Also,
one usually adds a 9th to the Em7 chord and a 13th to the A7, and
that puts you momentarily in the D major region (IIm7-V7 of D), and
thus your E dorian scale.
My question: how does one know, from the chord scale theory, that
the scale to use in the Em7 chord of Satin Doll is the dorian? How
does the theory tell you that, except by showing you that for the
moment you are in the D major territoty?
I wouldn't say that chord scale theory says anything about THE scale
to use anywhere; it's about choice and what those choices imply. If
you interpret the 3rd and 4th bars of Satin Doll as being temporarily
in D major, then that and chord scale theory give you E dorian. See
below for more discussion.
My point is, if you know what tonal region you are, you can easily
figure out what notes are diatonic, and don't need chord scale theory.
Harold
Honestly, I am starting to wonder if you have a different definition
of chord scale theory than I do. I don't think of chord scale theory
as saying "THIS scale, and ONLY this scale is the right one" but
rather giving some choices and nomenclature, so you can group
solutions that occur in similar situations. There is an aspect of
chord scale theory (at least the way I teach it) that talks about
"first choice" scales, those being the ones closest to the key, but
NOT by any means the most musical or desirable! It's meant to be a
tool, not a hobble.
On the Em7 in Satin Doll, I don't really see a reason to treat the
one in bar 3 any differently than the one in bar 4, except for
reasons of musical variety, as it is the same chord with the same
function. But I still maintain that chord scale theory gives us E
phrygian, E aeolian, E dorian, E phygian maj7 (same as D melodic
minor) and E locrian maj7 (same as D harmonic minor), just for
starters. All of those can sound excellent at that spot in the tune,
and all are supported by chord scale theory. Assuming of course, that
we have the same definition of chord scale theory, as I mentioned.
Christopher
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