Hi Matthew,
> Do you ever use things like "Cadd2" to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write
> below, you would write C(9)?
Yes, "C (add2)" = C D E G. "C(9)" looks too much like "C9", which would of
course be C E (G) Bb D.
> And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason
> for that? Is it not used in jazz very much?
These days, altered 5ths are treated as any other alteration, hence "C7(#5)",
CMA7(#5), etc. Back in the day, you used to see a lot of chord symbols like
"C+7" but nowadays that's considered awkward (and potentially confusing).
Similarly, #11ths used to generally be notated as b5ths, until people noticed
that the bass players were still happily playing natural fifths in their bass
lines against those chords.
> With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd?
No. The natural 11th is only available as an extension on minor chords (mi7,
mi(MA7), mi7(b5), and the third is not omitted.
What I think you are talking about is something different, a suspended dominant
chord, where the 4th *replaces* the third. For instance:
Root - P4 - (P5) - mi7 = 7sus -- C F G Bb = C7sus
If you also want the ninth, that's "C9sus" and if you want the 9th and 13th,
it's "C13sus." (You will sometimes see C9sus chords written as "C11" but that's
poor practice, IMO.)
> (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If
> the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the
> symbols?
Yes -- although in that case the symbol would be 7sus (add3) -- C7sus (add3) =
C F (G) Bb E.
Suspended triads are just "sus" -- Csus = C F G. You'll sometimes see C D G
written as "Csus2" but I prefer "C5 (add2)." ("C5" is more of a rock symbol,
indicating a open fifth, or power chord -- C5 = just C G.)
> Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale
> after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is
> fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the
> written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though
> there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out
> loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out.
I've never tried Finale's tools but it doesn't surprise me that they give poor
results.
Cheers,
- DJA
-----
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
On 27 Jan 2011, at 1:14 AM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:
> Thanks Darcy and all,
>
> I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the
> whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense.
>
> Do you ever use things like "Cadd2" to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write
> below, you would write C(9)?
>
> And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason
> for that? Is it not used in jazz very much?
>
> With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably if
> it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is
> actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols?
>
> Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric
> world.
>
> Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale
> after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is
> fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the
> written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though
> there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out
> loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out.
>
> Cheers
>
> Matthew
>
>
> On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
>> Hi Matt,
>>
>> As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me
>> to correct some typos:
>>
>>> Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb =
>>
>> I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be:
>>
>> Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]*
>>
>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13
>>
>> Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course:
>>
>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> - DJA
>> -----
>> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Matt,
>>>
>>> Close:
>>>
>>> E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5)
>>>
>>> (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above
>>> the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.)
>>>
>>> I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you
>>> could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine.
>>>
>>> But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic
>>> chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th:
>>>
>>> Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7
>>> Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7
>>> Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7)
>>> Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7
>>>
>>> The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not
>>> essential.
>>>
>>> Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in
>>> addition to the 3rd and 7th:
>>>
>>> Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb =
>>> Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7
>>>
>>> On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh --
>>> this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody:
>>>
>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6
>>> Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6
>>>
>>> Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by
>>> replacing "7" with "9" or "13." The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For
>>> instance:
>>>
>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9
>>> Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13
>>>
>>> On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and
>>> implies the presence of a 9th):
>>>
>>> Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11
>>> Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F =
>>> Cmi11(MA7)
>>>
>>> Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most
>>> often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses.
>>> Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest
>>> alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to
>>> fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them
>>> horizontally.)
>>>
>>> Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9)
>>> Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13
>>> (#11 b9)
>>>
>>> There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic
>>> principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols
>>> for most commonly-used jazz chords.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> - DJA
>>> -----
>>> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, something like:
>>>>
>>>> E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?)
>>>>
>>>> (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.)
>>>>
>>>> Matthew
>>>>
>>>> On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote:
>>>>> On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote:
>>>>>> Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know
>>>>>> of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it
>>>>>> will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matthew
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example?
>>>>>
>>>>> cd
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