Dear Joseph and colleagues, This information is non-Shannon because it is meaningful. One provides meaning from the perspective of hindsight, that is, against the arrow of time. The meaning provides us with a model and thus enables us to relate this to the theory and computation of anticipatory systems. Meaning cannot directly be measured because it does not belong to the res extensa (but the res cogitans). Meaningful information, however, can sometimes be measured in terms of the footprints (along a trajectory or not) which the system of meaning-processing may leave behind. Perhaps, one can also consider this as the mutual information between information processing and meaning processing. With best wishes, Loet _____
Loet Leydesdorff Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR), Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam. Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-20- 525 3681 <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; <http://www.leydesdorff.net/> http://www.leydesdorff.net/ _____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Brenner Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 6:14 PM To: Srinandan Dasmahapatra; fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] The Fascination of Art Dear Colleagues, This comment by Sri is right on, but it further calls on us to answer the question of what does constitute artistic value. Market value is perhaps one indicator, but I feel this is only one aspect, and not the most interesting from an Information Science standpoint. (Nietzsche, exaggerating as usual, said that what has a price has no value.). I think one way to look at art may be the way Bob Logan looks at language in his book The Extended Mind, a cultural artifact that "is neither of the brain nor in the brain", (or perhaps both outside the brain and in the brain). This is what Bob calls a neo-dualistic formulation to which I think my logic in reality applies. I essentially proposed that the real value of art is related to the (non-Shannon) information it can deliver, and I would hope that some of you might be able to formulate this in a more rigorous way. Thank you and cheers, Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: Srinandan <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dasmahapatra To: fis@listas.unizar.es Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] The Fascination of Art I'm surprised to not see any of the obvious issue that come to my head -- conspicuous consumption by the wealthy and powerful, choosing to focus on buying up that which some consider valuable. After all, this continues in a more distributed market driven manner, commissions issued by noblemen to gifted artists who would gladly paint their patrons in generous light, showcasing their worldly wealth and property and even depicting servants with smiles on their faces to round off the aura of benevolence. (See, for instance, Ways of seeing, by John Berger.) Sri On 4 Oct 2008, at 17:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Send fis mailing list submissions to fis@listas.unizar.es To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of fis digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Fascination of Art (Joseph Brenner) From: "Joseph Brenner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: 4 October 2008 09:09:41 BST To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "fis" <fis@listas.unizar.es> Subject: Re: [Fis] The Fascination of Art Reply-To: Joseph Brenner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear Colleagues, I plead guilty to having contributed to the overstretching and apologize herewith. To try to answer Pedro's specific question, I feel that the source of fascination in art definitely goes beyond the art object, the physical "antique painting" as such. The fascination with art might be related to the information content of art works, which I see as concentrating a great deal of emotional and social information in a more or less dynamic entity (a dance performance). A play by Shakespeare or Goethe, a Rembrandt, or a Picasso condenses information at several levels of complexity such that the perceptual processes that are activated are both conscious and unconscious. As Heidegger said, the Angel in Rilke's "Elegies" "assures the recognition of a higher level of reality". I think one can apply some of E. O Wilson's ideas outlined in my first reply to Sonu: there seem to be some kind of epigenetic rules governing the process of attraction to art. Being able to receive this complex information content of art, e.g. from a cave painting, and store it might have good survival aspects as well. This is not inconsistent with Stan's point about the "pleasures" of art. Thank you and best wishes. Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "fis" <fis@listas.unizar.es> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 1:09 PM Subject: [Fis] The Fascination of Art Dear colleagues, My impression is that when art is discussed form the point of view of scientific disciplines, the "diminishing returns" effect starts quite soon --as discussants we should be aware when overstretching is taking place and leading the theme astray... anyhow, kindness and abiding by the two messages per week rule are to be expected at any circumstance in this list. A question I was going to ask to the people who contributed last week (of course, and to anyone interested) is why do we have such an enormous social and individual fascination with art. Probably the most expensive products on any postindustrial market economy are not chips or design molecules... but antique paintings. Historically the development of art is quite related to the emergence of urban life --its beneficial effects on the individual having to suffer "domesticate" life in the urban environment. But we have artistic "enchantment" in prehistoric caves (not much urban life at that time). What perceptual processes --maybe social traditions are not needed-- in order to "chain" and enslave the observer to the artwork? best wishes Pedro _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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