dear Gordana

just because the bit-view of reality one possible view is. Otherwise bits turns into digital metaphysics. Floridi: he is contradictory. He says/said that the infosphere is not the cybetspace, then yes, then no... Then he says that forms are on a "higher level of abstraction" that bit-forms... which is what Plato would say and said (but much better than Floridi), the digital infosphere being only one possibility of forms, then he says...



Dear all,

Regarding the very interesting discussion of "it" from "bit" and vice versa.

Usually each level of information processing (semantic, algorithmic, implementational) presupposes some "it" in which "bit" is implemented. In computing, recursions must have a bottom.

Could it be the case that on the very fundamental level, "it" and "bit" cannot be distinguished at all?

They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of Floridi who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an informational structure.

Fluctuons being quantum-mechanical phenomena have already dual wave-particle nature.
Why cannot they be "it-bit" as well?



*From:* [] *On Behalf Of *Loet Leydesdorff
*Sent:* den 25 september 2010 10:48
*To:* 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe';
*Subject:* Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

Dear Joe,

Please let me start by repeating my idea that fluctuons are "its", that is, energy in some form. If (mathematical) idealism is anti-realist, this is certainly not what I would consider Conrad's theory to be. Stan comes to the same conclusion, that fluctuons are its, but this suggests to him a non-materialist conception of information. This is a first place where something like another logic is needed that can incorporate the material-energetic and non-material aspects of information.

Can this issue not simply be solved by returning to Shannon's concept of information. Bits of information are dimensionless. In S = k(B) H, the Boltzmann constant provides the dimensionality.

One should not confuse this mathematical concept of information with the biologically inspired concept of information as "a difference which makes a difference" (Bateson). This is observed information by a system which can provide meaning to the information.

I would not call this "anti-realist", but "anti-positivist". The specification in the mathematical discourse remains res cogitans (as different from res extensa). All of physics also has this epistemological status. All other science, too, but sometimes positivism is ideologically prevailing.

Best wishes,



Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 <>;

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Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics 
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Germany (
Distinguished Researcher in Information Ethics, School of Information Studies, 
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA
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