Dear Rafael,

Ø  Otherwise bits turns into digital metaphysics

Not necessarily if we take that dual nature seriously. They are both waves and 

I have also written in that sense several times, among others in

Dear Loet,

Ø  The it-part is in the "structure" which assumes the specification of a 
system of reference.

In evolutionary terms: structure is deterministic/selective; Shannon-type 
information measures only variation/uncertainty.

I agree with you. And complementary part "bit" comes from its dynamics.



Best wishes,

From: Rafael Capurro []
Sent: den 25 september 2010 11:55
To: Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
Cc: Loet Leydesdorff; 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe';
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

dear Gordana

just because the bit-view of reality one possible view is. Otherwise bits turns 
into digital metaphysics.
Floridi: he is contradictory. He says/said that the infosphere is not the 
cybetspace, then yes, then no... Then he says that forms are on a "higher level 
of abstraction" that bit-forms... which is what Plato would say and said (but 
much better than Floridi), the digital infosphere being only one possibility of 
forms, then he says...



Dear all,

Regarding the very interesting discussion of "it" from "bit" and vice versa.

Usually each level of information processing (semantic, algorithmic, 
implementational) presupposes some "it" in which "bit" is implemented. In 
computing, recursions must have a bottom.

Could it be the case that on the very fundamental level, "it" and "bit" cannot 
be distinguished at all?
They simply are an "it-bit" like in Informational Structural Realism of Floridi 
who (using different reasoning) argues that reality is an informational 

Fluctuons being quantum-mechanical phenomena have already dual wave-particle 
Why cannot they be "it-bit" as well?


[] On Behalf Of Loet Leydesdorff
Sent: den 25 september 2010 10:48
To: 'Joseph Brenner'; 'Stanley N Salthe';<>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Revisiting the Fluctuon Model

Dear Joe,

Please let me start by repeating my idea that fluctuons are "its", that is, 
energy in some form. If (mathematical) idealism is anti-realist, this is 
certainly not what I would consider Conrad's theory to be. Stan comes to the 
same conclusion, that fluctuons are its, but this suggests to him a 
non-materialist conception of information. This is a first place where 
something like another logic is needed that can incorporate the 
material-energetic and non-material aspects of information.

Can this issue not simply be solved by returning to Shannon's concept of 
information. Bits of information are dimensionless. In S = k(B) H, the 
Boltzmann constant provides the dimensionality.

One should not confuse this mathematical concept of information with the 
biologically inspired concept of information as "a difference which makes a 
difference" (Bateson). This is observed information by a system which can 
provide meaning to the information.

I would not call this "anti-realist", but "anti-positivist". The specification 
in the mathematical discourse remains res cogitans (as different from res 
extensa). All of physics also has this epistemological status. All other 
science, too, but sometimes positivism is ideologically prevailing.

Best wishes,

Loet Leydesdorff
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR),
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
Tel.: +31-20- 525 6598; fax: +31-842239111 <> ;


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Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro

Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany

Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics 

Director, Steinbeis-Transfer-Institute Information Ethics (STI-IE), Karlsruhe, 
Germany (

Distinguished Researcher in Information Ethics, School of Information Studies, 
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA

President, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) 

Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) 

Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany


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