Bob --
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Robert Ulanowicz <u...@umces.edu> wrote
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Tactilizing processing
> To: Stanley N Salthe <ssal...@binghamton.edu>
> Cc: u...@cbl.umces.edu
>
>
> Quoting Stanley N Salthe <ssal...@binghamton.edu>:
>
> I suggested that a single small scale fluctuation near thermodynamic
>> equilibrium might have an upscale effect if a larger scale configuration
>> was
>> in place (perhaps by way of a larger scale fluctuation) that was able to
>> be
>> impacted by that fluctuation in such a way as to alter its configuration
>> in
>> a way that would be preserved long enough for it to be detected by a still
>> larger scale configuration, thus letting one signal go from micro through
>> meso to macro. But, for this to be other than a passing event, this would
>> require some kind of system for which such information might be adaptive,
>> and so it would be specially organized in such a way as to play this game
>> rather than being limited to the well-known physical model of ensemble
>> detection of lower scale events. Or it would just be a passing accidental
>> synchronization of fluctuations at different scales.
>>
>
> Stan, Isn't the upward propagation of a small event to the next level
> Prigogine's "order through fluctuations"? (Not across two levels though.)
> Bob
>
The Prigogine model is part of the background of my statement above.
In the Prigogine case, the process of self-organization is pulled by
entropy production intensification as a result of a particular level of
available free energy (more than could be dissipated by conduction, and not
so much as to result in turbulence). The experimental setup is organized so
as to obtain the resulting dissipative structure. As well, the energy flows
in this case of 'order through fluctuations' are not individual molecule
fluctuations at the lower level being propagated to the higher level as
seemingly suggested by Conrad's thinking, but a simultaneous reorganization
of the whole system of flow from disorganized to organized. I don't THINK
that anyone has suggested that this transition is seeded by the fluctuation
of a single molecule in the fluid. The fluctuations Prigogine had in mind
were, I think, manifest at the scale of the flow itself, which 'searches'
through various configurations to find the one that is stable at the given
flow level in the given set of boundary conditions. Are you aware of any
suggestion that these variations are seeded by individual fluid molecules
and then amplified upscale?
STAN
>
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
fis mailing list
fis@listas.unizar.es
https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
