Dear Christoph
I am not sure what you mean. In my understanding the important dynamics in
Peirce's pragmaticist semiotics is that symbols grow and create habits in a web
of signs in nature as well as in culture viewing the central dynamic process in
the cosmos as well as man to be of symbolic nature that through evolution and
history develops reasoning in many interlocking dimension.
Best
Søren
From: Christophe Menant <[email protected]>
Sent: 25. maj 2018 09:08
To: Søren Brier <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis
Dear Soren,
You are right to recall that a transdisciplinary theory of cognition and
communication has to include meaning. But I'm not sure that the Peircean
approach is enough for that.
The triad (Object, Sign, Interpretant) positions the Interpretant as being the
meaning of the Sign created by the Interpreter. But Peirce does not tell much
about a possible content of the Interpreter. He does not tell what is for him a
process of meaning generation. And this, I feel, should bring us to be
cautious about using Peirce in subjects dealing with meaning generation.
Best
Christophe
________________________________
De : Fis <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> de
la part de Søren Brier <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Envoyé : jeudi 24 mai 2018 17:44
À : Loet Leydesdorff; Burgin, Mark; Krassimir Markov;
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Objet : Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis
Dear Mark, Loet and others
My point was that all the aspects I mention are part of a reality that is
bigger than what we can grasp under the realm of physical science. Reality is
bigger than physicalism. Quantitative forms of information measurements can be
useful in many ways, but they are not sufficient for at transdisciplinary
theory of cognition and communication. As Loet write then we have to include
meaning. In what framework can we do that? The natural science do not have
experience and meaning in their conceptual foundations. We can try to develop a
logical approach like Mark and Peirce do. Where Mark stays in the structural
dimension and Loet wants to enter res cogitans by probability measures, ,
maybe because a philosophical framework that does not allow meaning to be
real. But Peirce keeps working with the metaphysical stipulations until he
reaches a framework that can integrate experience, meaning and logic in one
theory, namely his triadic pragmaticist semiotics. I am fascinated by it
because I think it is unique, but many researcher do not want to use it,
because its change in metaphysics in developing out of Descartes dualism, all
though most of us agrees that it is too limited to work in the modern
scientific ontology of irreversible time, that Prigogine developed. Who other
than Peirce has developed on non-dualist non-foundationalist transdisciplinary
semiotic process philosophy integrating animal (biosemiotics), human evolution,
history and language development in a consistent theory of the development of
human consciousness?
Best
Søren
From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Loet
Leydesdorff
Sent: 24. maj 2018 07:45
To: Burgin, Mark <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Søren
Brier <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; Krassimir Markov
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>;
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re[2]: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis
Dear Mark, Soren, and colleagues,
The easiest distinction is perhaps Descartes' one between res cogitans and res
extensa as two different realities. Our knowledge in each case that things
could have been different is not out there in the world as something seizable
such as piece of wood.
Similarly, uncertainty in the case of a distribution is not seizable, but it
can be expressed in bits of information (as one measure among others). The
grandiose step of Shannon was, in my opinion, to enable us to operationalize
Descartes' cogitans and make it amenable to the measurement as information.
Shannon-type information is dimensionless. It is provided with meaning by a
system of reference (e.g., an observer or a discourse). Some of us prefer to
call only thus-meaningful information real information because it is embedded.
One can also distinguish it from Shannon-type information as Bateson-type
information. The latter can be debated as physical.
In the ideal case of an elastic collision of "billard balls", the physical
entropy (S= kB * H) goes to zero. However, if two particles have a distribution
of momenta of 3:7 before a head-on collision, this distribution will change in
the ideal case into 7:3. Consequently, the probabilistic entropy is .7 log2
(.7/.3) + .3 log2 (.3/.7) = .86 - .37 = .49 bits of information. One thus can
prove that this information is not physical.
Best,
Loet
________________________________
Loet Leydesdorff
Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/> University of Sussex;
Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ.<http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>, Hangzhou;
Visiting Professor, ISTIC, <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html> Beijing;
Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck<http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of London;
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
------ Original Message ------
From: "Burgin, Mark" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: "Søren Brier" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; "Krassimir Markov"
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>;
"[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>"
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: 5/24/2018 4:23:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis
Dear Søren,
You response perfectly supports my analysis. Indeed, for you only the Physical
World is real. So, information has to by physical if it is real, or it cannot
be real if it is not physical.
Acceptance of a more advanced model of the World, which includes other
realities, as it was demonstrated in my book "Structural Reality," allows
understand information as real but not physical.
Sincerely,
Mark
On 5/17/2018 3:29 AM, Søren Brier wrote:
Dear Mark
Using 'physical' this way it just tends to mean 'real', but that raises the
problem of how to define real. Is chance real? I Gödel's theorem or mathematics
and logic in general (the world of form)? Is subjectivity and self-awareness,
qualia? I do believe you are a conscious subject with feelings, but I cannot
feel it, see it, measure it. Is it physical then?? I only see what you write
and your behavior. And are the meaning of your sentences physical? So here we
touch phenomenology (the experiential) and hermeneutics (meaning and
interpretation) and more generally semiotics (the meaning of signs in cognition
and communication). We have problems encompassing these aspects in the natural,
the quantitative and the technical sciences that makes up the foundation of
most conceptions of information science.
Best
Søren
Fra: Fis <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> På
vegne af Krassimir Markov
Sendt: 17. maj 2018 11:33
Til: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>; Burgin, Mark
<[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]>
Emne: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis
Dear Mark and FIS Colleagues,
First of all. I support the idea of Mark to write a paper and to publish it in
IJ ITA.
It will be nice to continue our common work this way.
At the second place, I want to point that till now the discussion on
Is information physical?
was more-less chaotic - we had no thesis and antithesis to discuss and to come
to some conclusions.
I think now, the Mark's letter may be used as the needed thesis.
What about the ant-thesis? Well, I will try to write something below.
For me, physical, structural and mental are one and the same.
Mental means physical reflections and physical processes in the Infos
consciousness. I.e. "physical" include "mental".
Structure (as I understand this concept) is mental reflection of the
relationships "between" and/or "in" real (physical) entities as well as
"between" and/or "in" mental (physical) entities.
I.e. "physical" include "mental" include "structural".
Finally, IF "information is physical, structural and mental" THEN simply the
"information is physical"!
Friendly greetings
Krassimir
From: Burgin, Mark<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 5:20 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis
Dear FISers,
It was an interesting discussion, in which many highly intelligent and
creative individuals participated expressing different points of view. Many
interesting ideas were suggested. As a conclusion to this discussion, I would
like to suggest a logical analysis of the problem based on our intrinsic and
often tacit assumptions.
To great extent, our possibility to answer the question "Is information
physical? " depends on our model of the world. Note that here physical means
the nature of information and not its substance, or more exactly, the substance
of its carrier, which can be physical, chemical biological or quantum. By the
way, expression "quantum information" is only the way of expressing that the
carrier of information belongs to the quantum level of nature. This is similar
to the expressions "mixed numbers" or "decimal numbers", which are only forms
or number representations and not numbers themselves.
If we assume that there is only the physical world, we have, at first, to
answer the question "Does information exist? " All FISers assume that
information exists. Otherwise, they would not participate in our discussions.
However, some people think differently (cf., for example, Furner, J. (2004)
Information studies without information).
Now assuming that information exists, we have only one option, namely, to
admit that information is physical because only physical things exist.
If we assume that there are two worlds - information is physical, we have
three options assuming that information exists:
- information is physical
- information is mental
- information is both physical and mental
Finally, coming to the Existential Triad of the World, which comprises three
worlds - the physical world, the mental world and the world of structures, we
have seven options assuming that information exists:
- information is physical
- information is mental
- information is structural
- information is both physical and mental
- information is both physical and structural
- information is both structural and mental
- information is physical, structural and mental
The solution suggested by the general theory of information tries to avoid
unnecessary multiplication of essences suggesting that information (in a
general sense) exists in all three worlds but ... in the physical world, it is
called energy, in the mental world, it is called mental energy, and in the
world of structures, it is called information (in the strict sense). This
conclusion well correlates with the suggestion of Mark Johnson that information
is both physical and not physical only the general theory of information makes
this idea more exact and testable.
In addition, being in the world of structures, information in the strict
sense is represented in two other worlds by its representations and carriers.
Note that any representation of information is its carrier but not each carrier
of information is its representation. For instance, an envelope with a letter
is a carrier of information in this letter but it is not its representation.
Besides, it is possible to call all three faces of information by the name
energy - physical energy, mental energy and structural energy.
Finally, as many interesting ideas were suggested in this discussion, may be
Krassimir will continue his excellent initiative combining the most interesting
contributions into a paper with the title
Is
information physical?
and publish it in his esteemed Journal.
Sincerely,
Mark Burgin
On 5/11/2018 3:20 AM, Karl Javorszky wrote:
Dear Arturo,
There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that relate
to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That was the
time as computers could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and the Rogers
techniques were a current discovery.
(Rogers developed a dialogue method where one does not address the contents of
what the patient says, but rather the emotional aspects of the message, assumed
to be at work in the patient.)
They then said, that in some cases it was indistinguishable, whether a human or
a machine provides the answer to a patient's elucidations.
Progress since then has surely made possible to create machines that are
indistinguishable in interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called "expert
systems ", are widely used in many fields. If the interaction is rational,
that is: formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi Wittgenstein, the
difference in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or a human", becomes
irrelevant.
Artistry, intuition, creativity are presently seen as not possible to translate
into Wittgenstein sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet well
understood. But!: there are some who are busily undermining the current
fundamentals of rational thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to
experience the ultimate disillusionment, namely that humans are a
combinatorial tautology.
Accordingly, may I respectfully express opposing views to what you state: that
machines and humans are of incompatible builds. There are hints that as far as
rational capabilities go, the same principles apply. There is a rest, you say,
which is not of this kind. The counter argument says that irrational processes
do not take place in organisms, therefore what you refer to belongs to the main
process, maybe like waste belongs to the organism's principle. This view draws
a picture of a functional biotope, in which the waste of one kind of organism
is raw material for a different kind.
Karl
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> schrieb am Do., 10. Mai
2018 15:24:
Dear Bruno,
You state:
"IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,
THEN "physical" has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e.
"physical" becomes a mathematical notion.
...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of
description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or "not feel any
change" if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the
brain/body at that level of description".
The problem of your account is the following:
You say "IF" and "indexical digital mechanism is the HYPOTHESIS".
Therefore, you are talking of an HYPOTHESIS: it is not empirically tested and
it is not empirically testable. You are starting with a sort of postulate: I,
and other people, do not agree with it. The current neuroscience does not
state that our brain/body is (or can be replaced by) a digital machine.
In other words, your "IF" stands for something that possibly does not exist in
our real world. Here your entire building falls down.
--
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android
giovedì, 10 maggio 2018, 02:46PM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>:
(This mail has been sent previously , but without success. I resend it, with
minor changes). Problems due to different accounts. It was my first comment to
Mark Burgin new thread "Is information physical?".
Dear Mark, Dear Colleagues,
Apology for not answering the mails in the chronological orders, as my new
computer classifies them in some mysterious way!
This is my first post of the week. I might answer comment, if any, at the end
of the week.
On 25 Apr 2018, at 03:47, Burgin, Mark
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion
Is information physical?
That is an important topic indeed, very close to what I am working on.
My result here is that
IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,
THEN "physical" has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e.
"physical" becomes a mathematical notion.
The proof is constructive. It shows exactly how to derive physics from
Arithmetic (the reality, not the theory. I use "reality" instead of "model"
(logician's term, because physicists use "model" for "theory").
Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of
description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or "not feel any
change" if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the
brain/body at that level of description.
Not only information is not physical, but matter, time, space, and all physical
objects become part of the universal machine phenomenology. Physics is reduced
to arithmetic, or, equivalently, to any Turing-complete machinery. Amazingly
Arithmetic (even the tiny semi-computable part of arithmetic) is Turing
complete (Turing Universal).
The basic idea is that:
1) no universal machine can distinguish if she is executed by an arithmetical
reality or by a physical reality. And,
2) all universal machines are executed in arithmetic, and they are necessarily
undetermined on the set of of all its continuations emulated in arithmetic.
That reduces physics to a statistics on all computations relative to my actual
state, and see from some first person points of view (something I can describe
more precisely in some future post perhaps).
Put in that way, the proof is not constructive, as, if we are machine, we
cannot know which machine we are. But Gödel's incompleteness can be used to
recover this constructively for a simpler machine than us, like Peano
arithmetic. This way of proceeding enforces the distinction between first and
third person views (and six others!).
I have derived already many feature of quantum mechanics from this (including
the possibility of quantum computer) a long time ago. I was about sure this
would refute Mechanism, until I learned about quantum mechanics, which verifies
all the most startling predictions of Indexical Mechanism, unless we add the
controversial wave collapse reduction principle.
The curious "many-worlds" becomes the obvious (in arithmetic) many computations
(up to some equivalence quotient). The weird indeterminacy becomes the simpler
amoeba like duplication. The non-cloning of matter becomes obvious: as any
piece of matter is the result of the first person indeterminacy (the first
person view of the amoeba undergoing a duplication, ...) on infinitely many
computations. This entails also that neither matter appearance nor
consciousness are Turing emulable per se, as the whole arithmetical
reality-which is a highly non computable notion as we know since Gödel-plays a
key role. Note this makes Digital Physics leaning to inconsistency, as it
implies indexical computationalism which implies the negation of Digital
Physics (unless my "body" is the entire physical universe, which I rather
doubt).
My opinion is presented below:
Why some people erroneously think that information is physical
The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief
of many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality,
which is studied by science. At the same time, people encounter something that
they call information.
When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information because
with the letter they receive information. The letter is physical, i.e., a
physical object. As a result, people start thinking that information is
physical. When people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is information
because with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the
computer in the form of electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result,
people start thinking even more that information is physical.
However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects
are only carriers or containers of information.
To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say
that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the textbook
contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same way, the textbook
contains information but is not information itself. The same is true for
letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all
of them only contain information but are not information. For instance, as we
know, different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make an
identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and its copy will
be different physical objects (physical things) but they will contain the same
information.
Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data
and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical objects
(physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who think that
information is physical.
OK. The reason is that we can hardly imagine how immaterial or non physical
objects can alter the physical realm. It is the usual problem faced by dualist
ontologies. With Indexical computationalism we recover many dualities, but they
belong to the phenomenologies.
One more misleading property of information is that people can measure it.
This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only
physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous conclusion
that information is physical. However, measuring information is essentially
different than measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no
"scales" that measure information. Only human intellect can do this.
OK. I think all intellect can do that, not just he human one.
Now, the reason why people believe in the physical is always a form of the
"knocking table" argument. They knocks on the table and say "you will not tell
me that this table is unreal".
I have got so many people giving me that argument, that I have made dreams in
which I made that argument, or even where I was convinced by that argument ...
until I wake up.
When we do metaphysics with the scientific method, this "dream argument"
illustrates that seeing, measuring, ... cannot prove anything ontological. A
subjective experience proves only the phenomenological existence of
consciousness, and nothing more. It shows that although there are plenty of
strong evidences for a material reality, there are no evidences (yet) for a
primitive or primary matter (and that is why, I think, Aristotle assumes it
quasi explicitly, against Plato, and plausibly against Pythagorus).
Mechanism forces a coming back to Plato, where the worlds of ideas is the world
of programs, or information, or even just numbers, since very elementary
arithmetic (PA without induction, + the predecessor axiom) is already Turing
complete (it contains what I have named a Universal Dovetailer: a program which
generates *and* executes all programs).
So I agree with you: information is not physical. I claim that if we assume
Mechanism (Indexical computationalism) matter itself is also not *primarily*
physical: it is all in the "head of the universal machine/number" (so to speak).
And this provides a test for primary matter: it is enough to find if there is a
discrepancy between the physics that we infer from the observation, and the
physics that we extract from "the head" of the machine. This took me more than
30 years of work, but the results obtained up to now is that there is no
discrepancies. I have compared the quantum logic imposed by incompleteness
(formally) on the semi-computable (partial recursive, sigma_1) propositions,
with most quantum logics given by physicists, and it fits rather well.
Best regards,
Bruno
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