finally some facts. +1 On Jan 14, 2012, at 8:24 AM, Taka Kojima wrote:
> I've done a lot of Flash work and a lot of HTML/JS/CSS, and there is > definitely some misinformation in this thread. > > jQuery for one is not as great as it is touted it be, it's useful for > things, but it's not the be-all-end-all of HTML development. > > It makes it easier to do the following cross browser: > > - Query the DOM > - Animate elements > - AJAX > - Event listeners > > It does some other stuff, but that's the gist of it. Usually, if you just > use jQuery, your application is going to be a mess. > > JavaScript is a very powerful language, ActionScript 2 is an implementation > of JavaScript. AS3 is an implementation of the abandoned ECMAScript 4. > > Switching from AS3 to JavaScript/HTML requires a bit of a paradigm shift, > but it's really not that much different (taking into account the current > capabilities of HTML5/JS/CSS). Instead of Sprites you have divs, yeah there > are a few more semantics, especially when getting into HTML5 but it's very > straightforward, an <h1> represents a header, <img> represents an image and > so on. > > The biggest shift is from Classical Inheritance to Prototypical > Inheritance, but the key thing to note is that there is still inheritance. > > Prototypical inheritance is definitely more powerful than Classical > Inheritance when used right. > > Anyway, coming from a guy who's done a lot of both, HTML5/JS/CSS can be > quite fun to work with, provided you have the right toolsets and mindset. > > I put together a JS library for Classical Inheritance in JS btw (heavily > influenced by AS3), you can find it here: > > https://github.com/gigafied/minion > > Might help some of you guys out trying to do stuff in the HTML/JS world. > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:56 PM, Ktu <[email protected]>wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Karl DeSaulniers <[email protected] >>> wrote: >> >>> @Ktu >>> I see what your saying.. I agree. >>> The technology is out there for HTML to get a complete face-lift if you >>> will. >>> If not a whole new write-up. And from this response, I understand your >>> black box now. >>> Sry if any disconnect. I guess in my pursuit to make what was available >> to >>> me work >>> I didn't worry about if that structure would or could change. >>> >> i love control. i like being in control so this is why i have an issue with >> black boxes. i still believe that black boxes are inhibitors to progress >> >>> >>> I don't see why it couldn't be done, and to add to that, browsers could >>> use a rewrite as well. 0.รต >>> >>> ..but then I guess some would argue that the <canvas> tag is what your >>> talking about. >> >> But that too is a black box IMO and I am sure yours as well. Correct me if >>> I am wrong. >>> >> you are not wrong. in my opinion the canvas tag is another black box that >> allows for a different (and in some ways lower level) functionality. its >> nice that this black box is very abstract so you can accomplish more within >> it. this abstract layer is similar to flash. i mean, grant skinner created >> a framework that emulates the flash display architecture when using the >> canvas tag. this tag both helps and hurts my case. >> >>> >>> Can you give an example of what your talking about.. or >>> the idea behind a black-less box?? :) >>> >> not sure if i understand your question now, but it has sparked a thought >> that seems to connect things together for me, and might give insight as to >> why i think about this. >> >> black boxes are useful. they can really make things easier sometimes. as it >> seams, we keep adding more and more black boxes to boxes to make things >> easier. this is fine and good until we start trying to use the black boxes >> the way they were not intended. it would be nicer if i could change the way >> that box worked, but i cannot. >> >> take for example this correlation about black boxes. >> >> (excuse my poor html knowledge) >> I want a scrollable block of content in my html page that only takes up >> part of the screen. >> i create a <div> give it size and tell it overflow = hidden (?) and that it >> should use a scrollbar (somehow?) >> >> if i did that in flash >> create a sprite >> set scrollRect and give content >> either use scrollbar components from some framework or write my own >> >> if i did that in C++ >> i could, go on forever making all the things! >> or utilize a bunch of libraries to make it almost as simple (relatively >> please) as the html. >> >> >> the more black boxes we have the less control we have. in my own work, i >> create white boxes (black boxes i have source code to, do they have a >> proper name?). i have created the building blocks to serve the common >> tasks. i wonder at people who spend any time working on 'browser >> compatibility'. the example above has shown me that i like boxes, but not >> black ones, and if there is anything i can do, it will never be black. my >> example above shows how boxes are helpful, but i think i really do not like >> the closed aspect of it. >> >> my head now reeling with new off topic thoughts i will stop. what started >> as an emotional response to my own past experiences (first thread) has >> turned into yet another dive into the confused search for new information. >> >> >> p.s. i prefer flash because i have more control than html, i got stuck with >> flash because it is the easiest way to make something pretty. >> >> >>> >>> Sounds like a good thread if nothing else.. >>> >>> Best, >>> Karl >>> >>> PS: I am still +1 on a flash-based browser with DOM to FllashObj >>> converters built in. >>> Sounds like a great C++ project. >>> >>> :)) >>> >>> ** I may be a dreamer, but I'm not the only one... >>> ** J.L. >>> >>> >>> On Jan 13, 2012, at 4:04 PM, Ktu wrote: >>> >>> if i am not mistaken, jQuery is a framework that makes working with html >>>> tags easier. but you are still stuck with using those tags. >>>> >>>> its not a matter of 'can you do it with this language', its a matter of >>>> 'what control do i have'. i have always felt that as a developer, you >> have >>>> less control over how html works, than how flash works. there are >> greater >>>> and deeper black boxes in html. >>>> >>>> i just don't see why people like working in html at all. they took a >>>> markup >>>> language, designed to be static and Frankenstein-ed it with javascript >> and >>>> css to compensate where they should have attempted to create something >>>> new. >>>> >>>> >>>> i don't think the future is bleak at all either. in fact, i think that >>>> flash might end up being used more and more for tools, education, and >>>> visualization. but that's what i am using it for and i am a bit out of >>>> touch with what everyone else is doing. >>>> >>>> are there ways that i could effectively create my own 'tag' with its own >>>> attributes and events and use that in lieu of a natvie html tag? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Karl DeSaulniers <[email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> One word.. jQuery. >>>>> >>>>> In my option it is the next best thing to flash. >>>>> I have been able to recreate most, if not all of my flash pieces with >> it. >>>>> >>>>> <body> is your canvas. (NOT a reference to HTML5 BTW, think artist >> canvas >>>>> =) >>>>> <DIV> is your friend. Call it your MovieClip. >>>>> <p> is a helper when layout has text. >>>>> if your daring enough to learn the proper way to use it, >>>>> <table>, <tr> and the good ol <td> can make a sound foundation. >>>>> (Not the going consensus though, I just know how to use them properly. >>>>> most people like to use a table-less design and thats just <DIV>s >> galore >>>>> with CSS.) >>>>> >>>>> jQuery can create any element you want on the fly (Not sure about the >>>>> HTML >>>>> tag though, >>>>> never tried. I use php to create any new HTML) and manipulate it (in >> some >>>>> cases) >>>>> better than flash and an MC. jQuery has not been a memory hoooooogggg >>>>> like >>>>> flash was for me >>>>> and like I said, I have recreated most of what I did with flash. >>>>> >>>>> Just a very small run-down an there is A LOT more I have not touched on >>>>> that you can utilize. >>>>> The future is not so bleak, IMO. >>>>> >>>>> I just assume let Adobe burry Flash if this is the effort they would >> put >>>>> towards it. >>>>> I learned Flash much like you. I hated the limitations of HTML. >>>>> Saw flash and asked, why can't HTML do this stuff?? >>>>> Well now it can, or I should say, it kind-of always could, >>>>> >>>>> I just didn't know Javascript and CSS... >>>>> >>>>> HTH, >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Karl >>>>> >>>>> PS: Flash still is my love, but she's left me to figure out who she >> is. I >>>>> wait with baited breath... >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 13, 2012, at 12:43 PM, Ktu wrote: >>>>> >>>>> *preamble:* >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> a recent thread got me thinking about my educational experience, and >>>>>> why i >>>>>> love flash so much. i started html, hated it, then tried flash, all in >>>>>> high >>>>>> school. after high school i eventually went to a college for two >>>>>> semesters >>>>>> and learned some c++ and java (java was easier, but understanding the >>>>>> power >>>>>> of c++ was cool). >>>>>> >>>>>> i realized i didn't like html because you couldn't do anything with >> it. >>>>>> it >>>>>> was just presentation. i wanted to do logic. flash, allowed me to do >>>>>> logic. >>>>>> when i learned html javascript was brand new and my high school >> teacher >>>>>> knew nothing of it (barely knew anything of anything). so what flash >>>>>> allowed me was a place to immediately make things happen (started just >>>>>> when >>>>>> as2 came out). >>>>>> >>>>>> *problem:* >>>>>> >>>>>> even after you include css, dynamic css, and javascript to html you >>>>>> still >>>>>> have this one problem which is the whole reason i hate html. the >>>>>> presentation layer is black boxed. i think there are two elements to >>>>>> that >>>>>> which need addressing; one being the browser wars, the other being the >>>>>> (imho) new powers of javascript and the html/css standards. >>>>>> >>>>>> each tag we use in html is a black box. i can't change the way it >>>>>> behaves. >>>>>> worse yet, each browser (and os) represent things differently. right >> off >>>>>> the bat its hard to make a single experience. but these black boxes >> make >>>>>> innovation harder. >>>>>> >>>>>> ok, so with javascript and such you could build your own 'scroll bar' >>>>>> and >>>>>> 'scrolling content', but you are still confined within the black boxes >>>>>> you >>>>>> are given, and merely using them in a way they weren't initially >>>>>> designed >>>>>> for. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> how is it that anyone enjoys working in an environment where their ui >> is >>>>>> so >>>>>> locked down? (or is it?) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *haters:* >>>>>> >>>>>> to make comment on flash's ui black box: >>>>>> yes, their display architecture is a black box and we must conform to >>>>>> that. >>>>>> i get that, but the black box in flash ui is more of a foundation to a >>>>>> house that we can't touch. where as i see html as being pre built >> rooms >>>>>> that we can stitch together. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *what's up:* >>>>>> >>>>>> i have not touched html in years; i am biased; i am open minded, am i >>>>>> missing something about html? have they added 'lower level' tags that >>>>>> act >>>>>> more like a foundation? >>>>>> can javascript 'create' new html tags? >>>>>> >>>>>> with the way things are going, i think the global web language will >>>>>> eventually need to have fewer black boxes in the ui (if that's not the >>>>>> case >>>>>> today) >>>>>> >>>>>> ...,? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ktu; >>>>>> >>>>>> The information contained in this message may or may not be privileged >>>>>> and/or confidential. If you are NOT the intended recipient, >>>>>> congratulations, you got mail! >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>>> Flashcoders mailing list >>>>>> [email protected].****com <Flashcoders@chattyfig.** >>>>>> figleaf.com <[email protected]>> >>>>>> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/****mailman/listinfo/flashcoders< >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcoders> >>>>>> <**http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcoders< >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Karl DeSaulniers >>>>> Design Drumm >>>>> http://designdrumm.com >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________****_________________ >>>>> Flashcoders mailing list >>>>> [email protected].****com <Flashcoders@chattyfig.** >>>>> figleaf.com <[email protected]>> >>>>> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/****mailman/listinfo/flashcoders< >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcoders> >>>>> <**http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcoders< >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ktu; >>>> >>>> The information contained in this message may or may not be privileged >>>> and/or confidential. If you are NOT the intended recipient, >>>> congratulations, you got mail! >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> Flashcoders mailing list >>>> [email protected].**com <[email protected]> >>>> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcoders< >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders> >>>> >>> >>> Karl DeSaulniers >>> Design Drumm >>> http://designdrumm.com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Flashcoders mailing list >>> [email protected].**com <[email protected]> >>> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/**mailman/listinfo/flashcoders< >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ktu; >> >> The information contained in this message may or may not be privileged >> and/or confidential. 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