Zorn is not Mistral; while Zorn is a plugin for Eclipse, it is NOT a server component like the Flex server is currently. Huge difference.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex & Alex" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 3:39 PM Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Flex Server Alternatives I just purchased a 4 cpu license. Does this mean that there is no worth in it when zorn comes out? Will I get the new flex for free? Or do I have to pay all that money again? I hope Macromedia sorts all that out. Alex --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, sam / pixelconsumption <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > at MAX almost 50% of the sessions are about Zorn or include Zorn some > how, I'm sure we'll all have a clear picture of what the future holds > after MAX. > > // sam robbins > // pixelconsumption > > Clint Modien wrote: > > > According to Mike Chambers @ MM Zorn will.... > > > > http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mesh/archives/2005/08/will_zorn_requi.c fm > > > > > > On 9/29/05, *Kevin Langdon* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > > > WARNING: This message contains little-to-no helpful information > > and for the > > most part is a rant. > > > > The problem with Flex pricing isn't the price itself. The problem > > is it's > > model. Most development I have seen is only using Flex as a > > compiler, not a > > service. Most applications would actually perform better if > > developers > > simply compiled locally using mxmlc and then used non-Flex > > technologies like > > Remoting or openAMF on their production servers. More developers, > > able to > > develop in this architecture, need to bring this up with Macromedia. > > Macromedia needs to understand that we are willing to pay them for > > the CPUs > > that we compile on, but it is just ridiculous to expect us to pay > > for the > > servers serving those static swf files. > > > > Flash is a client-side technology. It has nothing to do with > > servers and > > therefore CPU pricing makes no sense. What if I were to build a > > desktop > > application compiled using Flex? Is Macromedia telling me that I > > need to > > pay for each one of my user's CPUs? > > > > I am holding my breath hoping that Zorn fixes this problem. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com>] On > > Behalf Of Niklas Richardson > > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 4:43 AM > > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com <mailto:flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex Server Alternatives > > > > Someone might have mentioned this already, but I haven't seen it. > > > > If you want some of the functionality of Flex (i.e. forms, data grid, > > etc...) and cost is an issue, then ColdFusion MX 7 could be an > > option for > > you. It has a very cut down version of Flex built into it and > > accessible > > via ColdFusion tags, however you can still build some pretty good > > app's with > > it - if budget is an issue. Also, there are plenty of companies > > providing > > ColdFusion MX 7 hosting. > > > > Check out the team over at ASFusion (http://www.asfusion.com/) who are > > really doing some cool stuff using ColdFusion MX 7 Flash Forms! > > > > Also, http://www.cfform.com/. > > > > > > > > On 29/09/05, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 9/29/05, Tariq Ahmed < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > > > Well I don't know if I would venture to "dirt cheap". What other > > > > systems > > > are you referring to? > > > > > > See SAP for starters, then once you jump that hurdle, now look at > > > anything with the word "ORACLE" in it. > > > > > > > > > > If you're enterprise, and building mission critical apps, and > > > > especially > > > if it affects financial performance and need to be SOX compliant > > > you're basic setup is: > > > > > > > > > > - 1 Development WS > > > > - 1 QA Server > > > > - High Availability Setup (at least 2 load balanced machines). > > > > - Disaster Recovery Site (min 1 web server). > > > > > > > > If you're using decent hardware with 4CPU Xeons, you've got 5 > > > > machines * 4 > > > cpus/ea = 20 CPUs * $15K/cpu = $300 000. > > > > > > > > You would have to REALLY boost automation, workflow efficiency, > > > > etc... to > > > recuperate the cost of Flex licensing and Flex application > > development > > > (not everyone is Scott Barnes level super coder) vs a > > CF/Whatever based > > solution. > > > Not to say that it can't be done, and I'm > > > > > > You'd still outlay the same costs if not more with a HTML based > > > solution such as CFMX. Furthermore, if you are to comply with > > SOX you > > > have to jump through a bit more hurdles in authenticating the HTML > > > solution is immune to various DOS attacks (injection attacks, packet > > > sniffing the works). Then you have resources and costs associated to > > > building a HTML application. If you are going down the path of the > > > AJAX momentum, good luck in comparing the two. > > > > > > I'm also talking about systems which have a status "Please turn off > > > in 1 year, no ifs, no but's". These do exist in enterprise, > > whereby a > > > legacy green system is currently turned on and there is about a > > > handful of people left in the world who know what it does, its that > > > system the IT Director is scared off the most and nearly faints > > when > > > the LED's on the outer box suddenly goes out... Point is, something > > > has to replace it and typically the cowboy approach is lock one self > > > into a proprietary solution. Salvaging existing systems is > > extremely > > > delicate and at times hard, and the main trip up is simply that > > > whatever gets put in its place isn't agile enough to cope with not > > > only "replacement" but growth. Some do, some cope really well > > and some > > praise technologies like .NET for salvation. > > > > > > Other times its just this mutated be-spoked solution comprising of > > > part HTML and part other that realistically is hopeless at best in > > > terms of getting data in and out. > > > > > > We at omniEffect specialise in using FLEX to reach out and touch > > > existing backend systems but provide a uniform view. If you think > > > about a users daily routine how many UI's do they go in and out of > > > just for farming data. How peoples perception of how data can be > > > accessed is simply due to whats been handed down to them by someone > > > who probably should never of had the job of deciding how UI > > works. In > > > stead, if you provide a uniform view that reaches out and touches > > > multiple assets within an Enterprise, you now stand a better > > chance of > > > circumventing a lot of issues. Through FLEX you could also > > provide a > > > much easier and accessible way to improve on Business Processes in > > > general? does that save money? most of the time its a tick for > > yes. In > > > some Ent Solutions its extremely hard to get a simple report, > > and to do so > > its this monolithic task, which can be at times put into the "too hard > > basket" > > > (thus we see these faction(s) of MS Access databases, excel > > > spreadsheets existing..all open to screw ups, resulting in say, a > > > general ledger being slightly inaccurate!)... > > > > > > FLEX provides a visual input into business intelligence and it may > > > not be profitable, it just maybe enough to break even on. Yet, > > it can > > > allow folks the ability to move forward, to treat their backend as > > > "content" instead of this mutated ball of part UI part Logic. > > > > > > The main problem with FLEX today, is its not really being pushed as > > > much as it should. There are too many "Kiosk" style applications > > > floating around the net as "look here, this is a great example of > > > flex"... which is great...yet if you put these examples into > > > perspective and outlay say 300k as Tariq put it, it starts > > looking like > > probably a bad ROI. > > > > > > To me FLEX so far is this powerful tool that every ones too > > scared to > > use. > > > Mission critical systems? hmm, I'm a realist in saying that the > > > chances of FLEX getting that much prime time within a company this > > > early in the game, is probably a risk unto itself. There isn't a lot > > > of skillbase in the market yet to drive home its power as so far we > > > have seen probably a lot of backend developers suddenly become > > "Flex > > > developers" which is scary..not because they are dumb, far from > > it, it > > > takes a whole new mindset to play in the RIA world as we are > > stuck between > > half-website and half-thickware application. > > > > > > FLEX is dirt cheap to someone who's staring at a huge backend > > system > > > that's been told in order to upgrade, you must implement this weird > > > HTML/JS based solution... > > > > > > In my opinion, FLEX 2.0 will give us a better stance in "FLEX goes > > > Prime Time", but that's another discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > If all we are using FLEX for is a simple replacement to an existing > > > "HTML application" or as a POC, yes its expensive prov > > > > > > > sure it can (reminder: I am a huge Flex proponent); but looking at > > > > things > > > from a business sense it has to be measureable and provable. Eg > > I made > > > one Flex app that compared to what was there before saves about > > > $200K/yr, but how much more it would save over a CF based > > solution is hard > > to measure. > > > > > > You made FLEX replace an existing application, did it simply > > replace > > > or increase its appeal? Thats the key difference. If you are buying > > > FLEX to replace existing stuff and that's all it does is put a > > "Flash" > > > front-end to a HTML version then you've just spent a fortune on > > > something that probably didn't require it. FLEX provides the > > ability > > > to shift perception on how data works, go from rows of peoples names > > > to displaying each person as a document. Open that document and you > > > find more data centered around that person. Its got the power > > yet to > > > provide your users the ability to see more details or cull > > details back... > > its just not being. > > > > > > Selling FLEX to management is probably the hardest thing to do, as > > > firstly what the hell is a "FLEX" anyway? secondly "You mean flash > > > does more then spank the monkey? really how?"... at omniEffect > > we do a > > > presos and the first thing they see is the UI and immediately start > > > the whole "well that's all well and good to have a pretty UI but > > > listen here sonny, we have this big complex thing called a > > backend and > > > it needs to talk to that, you get me?" - which we then illustrate > > > thats actually the easiest part, and then once they overcome > > that, its > > > back to the UI and suddenly they are seeing visions of how data > > > intertwines to formulate this "great view" - thus enter an emotional > > interface. > > > > > > Price? at this point if you sold them on the fact that you > > could put > > > a FLEX UI on anything they have behind the scenes and they have 100% > > > total control over the UI, price becomes a secondary point. The > > key to > > > selling FLEX is, don't tell them its FLEX. Say "Unified > > View"..... if > > > they ask technically whats going on, tell them, but don't try and > > > sound like a Pro-Flash Salesman... Flash still needs more > > exposure to > > > those who don't know what Macromedia does fully and it sadly > > gets coupled > > a lot with the "Skip Intro" > > > or "spank the monkey" gimmicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So when trying to sell to management the sexy $300K Flex > > solution vs > > > > the > > > not as sexy $15K CF solution which gets the job done - you have to > > > account for at least a $285Kdifference. Because the opportunity cost > > > is that $285K could have bought you 3 or 4 more developers for that > > > year and double your development capacity which could have > > resulted in > > > a bunch more apps that save or make money that aren't addressed > > for that > > year. > > > > > > Yeah but for every war story like this, i could produce more > > > proactive ones. The ability to remove MS Access from a company > > alone > > > is something a lot of IT Directors will be willing to knife someone > > > for. FLEX has a lot more on the table then just pretty UI, it > > just needs > > better shaping.. > > > > Bla bla Bla... $300K is a TOUGH sell even for Enterprises with > > the > > > > deepest > > > of pockets, and it can be done obviously, but 'dirt cheap' in my > > > humble opinion is understanding it a weeeee bit. :) > > > > > > Depends on context i guess, for me seeing the disparate nightmares > > > that exist its dddddddirt cheap...for others its expensive.. > > I've had > > > to hats on, i've walked in their hand on heart and swore "Buy > > flex it > > > saves money" but then forgot that my co-developers couldn't > > bothered > > > learning stuff and kept reverting back to HTML because it was > > safe... > > > Its a hard sell if all you have is one small POC style app on the > > > workload...yet if you have a much bigger prize, it comes in > > under budget. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > Scott Barnes > > > http://www.mossyblog.com > > > > > > -- > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > FAQ: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > Search Archives: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > Web site design development Computer software development Software > > > design and development Macromedia flex Software development best > > > practice > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > YAHOO! 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