Dude, give it up.  You are wrong.  Accept it and move on with your life.


On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 09:13, Alan King wrote:
> Jon Berndt wrote:
> >>Jon Berndt wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Model Reference Point (MRP):  This is the reference point that is agreed
> >>>upon by both the aircraft modeler and the 3D model builder.
> >>
> >>I'd vote for calling it the "Visual Model Reference Point" because the
> >>term model can still be used for the 3d model and he flight model.
> >>
> >>Erik
> > 
> > 
> > True.
> > 
> 
>    Note this fact.  If you have the CG point as the reference, then scale
> matters very little to the motions of flying.  Only the point reference makes 
> the models match reasonably well.  You still need a distance measurement to know 
> the scale and work out CG shifts, where the nose, wheel, and tail really are, 
> etc though.  Even the control forces off.  But the motion point is not, for both 
> rotation and translation.
> 
>    You aren't just using the nose point.  No matter how much you trick 
> yourselves into saying that you're only using the nose, and just 'fixing it', 
> you are really providing a distance reference back to another point.  It takes 
> one point with full orientation, and another point to completely match two 
> reference frames.  There is no way to get around that fact.  What you are really 
> doing is having the nose point and a difference reference, and then working 
> everything out from that bringing everything into alignment.  That includes most 
> importantly for visual motion to FDM motion match the CG.
> 
>    If you look across all your models of all scales, you will see that your 
> adjustments all bring the CG point of the visual model to the CG point of the 
> FDM.  The CG to nose distance will be different, but that's in the offset 
> combined with whatever the FDM does with the offset to find the CG point.
> 
> 
>    Take all of the models.  Put all of the nose points at exactly the same spot. 
>   put the FDM nose point there.  Note that you have a range of CG's based on how 
> large the plane drawing is.  And your 'nose fix adjustment' is the distance to 
> some other point.  Then your FDM works out the CG point of each size model from 
> that other known adjustment and your CG is in the right place in both models. 
> We already put all the nose points into one spot.  If your alignment system only 
> needs the nose point to match in the FDM and the visual model, then set the FDM 
> nose to a known point, put all the visual nose points there, and your models 
> will all work no matter what size.  This doesn't work, even though all of your 
> nose points are now correctly known.  It doesn't work because you need a nose 
> point known, plus another number to some other reference point.  This other 
> reference gives you scale, and then put all other points in their place.  Most 
> importantly to visual motion, it lets you put your CG where it goes on the 
> visual model.
> 
>    That was my original point, it is impossible to have just the nose point on 
> the visual model and not have anything else and have everything match regardless 
> of scaling between the FDM and the visual.  You have to have some other 
> reference fix, that lets your FDM bring it's CG into alignment of where it 
> should be on the visual model.  That you are hiding it from the model creator so 
> they don't have to find the CG of the visual model is a great idea.  That you 
> are hiding it from yourselves though by saying you're 'fixing the nose point' 
> isn't as good.  You're sliding everything around with this adjustment, not just 
> the nose point.  And while it brings everything into line, the single most 
> important thing to how the model moves is getting the CG correct.  You don't 
> have some arbitrary fixed point on the nose of both models that makes everything 
> line up.  You have a fixed point on the visual model only.  You then move it 
> around on your FDM model with your adjustment, until the CG is where is should 
> be for the visual model so the motion looks correct.  If you double the scale of 
> the picture, you have to adjust your nose to CG distance through your 
> adjustment, even if that uses some other common reference point to get the CG in 
> the FDM.  Your adjustment is fixing where the nose should be, relative to some 
> other point, so that that other point is where it should be, so that the CG is 
> now also calculated in the right position in the visual model.
> 
>    You don't have a 'nose point does everything' system.  That adjustment isn't 
> some minor little tweak to your system.  That 'adjustment' carries every bit as 
> much weight in aligning the system as the nose point.  Using the nose point 
> first lets the model creator make the model without reference to scale, which is 
> great.  But it just means that someone on the FDM side is fixing the scale later 
> through the adjustment, not that the nose point is the only thing and nothing 
> else matters.  That adjustment is just as critical to the alignment of the 
> systems as the initial point.  It takes both, the nose point isn't 'it' like 
> some of you have tried to imply.  There was something else to your system, which 
> there had to be to bring the FDM and the visual model frames into full 
> alignment.  No single point fix at the nose or even the CG can completely align 
> two frames.
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
Tony Peden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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