Hi,
>I'm really running out of time here so I have to be brief and generic.
</=>
>Let's start a new thread for that, this thread is going no where fast.
??
> I think there is a system in place that allows developers to contribute to
> the web site. It's certainly not perfect and doesn't have every feature
> ever >imagined, it may not meet every developer's preferences and desires,
> but it is functional and workable if developers choose to use it.
>So is the blockage here that people don't know that the system exists? Don't
>know how it works? Don't want to use it because it's not the latest
>>trendiest approach? Don't want to use it because it's too hard or clumsy?
Which system?
Lufthansa has aircraft that allows them to fly from A to B. It's certainly not
perfect and doesn't have every feature ever imagined, it may not meet every
pilots preferences and desires, but it is functional and workable if the pilots
choose to use it:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufthansa-(Berlin-Stiftung)/Junkers-Ju-52-3mg8e/1061495/L/
Cheers
HHS
On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Heiko Schulz <aeitsch...@yahoo.de> wrote:
Puh...
I have to start anywhere, so I begin with this:
> So when I put too much time into FlightGear, I really see the effects on my
> bank account. I'm not complaining, I love being involved in the >FilghtGear
> project. I'm just pointing out that I continue to invest a huge amount of my
> personal time into the project often at my own personal >expense. So if
> something is brought to my attention and still isn't addressed in a timely
> manner, I'd simply request the same amount of patience you >would give to
> yourself or any other volunteer FlightGear developer.
And if it is not the money, then it is the family, life etc. which you will
loose, if you spend too much time on FGFS. I'm pretty aware of this.
That's why it is very bad, that you manage all this alone. To delegate is the
answer, and that's all what Martin, David and me want to say.
>And I really like having changes tracked through CVS. I avoid remote editing
>of the web content ... most services don't even allow that and it's >often
>slow behind my dsl connnection, but I'm lucky and have arranged ssh access to
>the web tree because the service provider
>(frozenwebhost.com) is a friend of the FlightGear project so I can go
>physically manipulate things if I need to. We get special attention from the
>>provider, so I feel this is a pretty good place to host our site. And I'm
>not afraid to put in a plug for frozenwebhost.com at the same time ... I've
>>been real happy with their service. There's been a couple minor glitches
>over the years, but it's not like when google goes off line and half the world
>>heads to the pub because there's nothing else you can actually accomplish.
First- noone has any issues against the hoster of this page. Really noone, and
as I can see, he likes OpenSource, and if the service is o.k. then the hoster
is o.k. too.
For some things tracking changes through CVS makes sense, but not for all. It
don't makes sense for the calender, announces and everythings which changes
often. And at least you are the one who has to spent his very rare time to edit
all- but nowadays it is possible and even safe(!) to delegate things to other
person and keeping it all uptodate. That brings me straight into this:
>What do you mean by a content mangement system? Version control? Wiki?
This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Content_Management_System
This makes it possible to divide flightgear.org in different sections, where
one or several authors has the authority to it and can change things. A lot of
pages (news pages, and others are already done successfully with it). You can
have still the authority to the as an example Features-page, aircraft-page,
while Martin and David has the authority to the calendar. You can even share
the authorities so you can be still the head overall.
>The web site has undergone reconstruction and reorganization a few times over
>the years. It's a lot better than when it first started out. That said, >of
>course things could be improved. I'm not able to watch the forum closely.
>What things were discussed there that are hard to find?
I don't see much improvements:
www.hoerbird.net/flightgearorg.jpeg
-2/3 of the page are advertisement- ironically even for MSFS!
-The navigation is confusing. The menubar is direct below the advertisement bar
and too small and can be very easy missed!.
-Download section, features, philosphy etc. are mostly hidden and are easy to
miss.
-news and announcments are too small compared to the advertisement and can be
very easy missed
In the forum I noticed, that people even not aware of that there is a page
called flightgear.org, where thy can find the most answers.
Or still don't know that there is already 1.9.1.
The funny thing is- they find the forum, but not the other more important
things. Why?
A good example for an OpenSource Projects-Homepage is www.blender.org:
-clear menubar, visible on the first glance at the top
-a much better organisation of the content. The link to the downloads is
visible immediately
-news and announcements are not small- all important things are visible
immediately
Or have a look into yafaray.org:
well organized, catch up the eyes and the important things aren't hidden.
or the german homepage of OpenOffice! http://de.openoffice.org/
They look all like a professional site, uptodate and attractive!
flightgear.org isn't uptodate in design and possibility.
>I don't mean to complain, but people within the FlightGear community
>communicate in a large variety of ways, and many issues are discussed. I
>>have to work for a living so I can't sit on IRC all day, I can't read every
>forum posting, and I'm lucky to at least try to skim all the dev list traffic
>and >pick out what I understand or what I think applies to or affects me.
>Unfortunately, I'm well aware of my physical and mental and time limits
>because I seem to be hitting up against them every day.
Everyone has limits- so I wonder why you are all doing it alone? Noone forces
you to read all postings etc. - that are others already doing. And as I know
some things due to their experiences was discussed much earlier- without any
changes.
>Quick word on this subject ... the revenue helps maintain the site, pay for
>domain names, etc. It's a balance of factors, but I prefer hosting our web
>>site with a professional service. That doesn't mean they are always perfect,
>but if we piggy back off people's personal web sites or personal >servers,
>there's more of a chance that these could go offline with zero warning. Maybe
>I'm getting old, but I've seen that happen a number of times >now, and have
>been on the scrambling end of trying to pull something together again when the
>orginal content is no longer available, the person can't >be contacted, etc.
>There are always single points of failure ... even now.
If a hoster goes offline without any warning, without having ever any contact
and support- then it wasn't professional! I had myself that issue once a time,
but was warned two month before the hoster went offline.
Life on the web is fast, and noone can say if this will not happen to
frozenwebhost.org too.
I understand that advertisement is a very comfortable way to get money and
helps paying the page. But do we really need 2/3 of the place for
advertisement? Advertisement for commercial, unfree sims, which why we began 12
years ago to develope a free, OpenSopurce sim?
And aren't there maybe other ways to get money for the domain names etc.? Did
you thought about looking for a sponsor?
At least:
>But at some point, with some people, it starts to seem like they are more
>interested in arguing and trotting out all their perpetual sore spots than
>>finding ways to make the system work. And for those people, that's ok if
>that's how you want to approach life, I'm a big boy, and all my clothes are
>>at least 50% asbestos :-) but it's certainly not productive and motivational
>if your end goal is to accomplish something useful.
I don't see that- there was a lot of ideas how to make the system work in the
past. But it was simply ignored.
To be clear: noone wants that you have to do changes allone without help. But
all what they want is to say: yes, we can! ;-)
I'm looking for your answer
Kind regards
Heiko
still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html
But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html
________________________________
Von: Curtis Olson <curtol...@gmail.com>
An: FlightGear developers discussions <flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Gesendet: Freitag, den 12. Juni 2009, 23:23:49 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightGear presentation on the LinuxTag expo,
On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Heiko Schulz wrote:
But as an example on my homepage, I have my own password and username for
ftp-upload, and If my homepage would be the official FGFS-homepage, I could
share this password to trustworthy developers and maintainer here as Martin and
others ...
I'm sure there are many ways to work things out. But one of the nice things
about the current system is that all developer contributions are managed and
tracked through our version control system before they get pushed up to the web
server. If everyone had direct access, some similar system would still need to
be setup so that changes don't step on each other. And I really like having
changes tracked through CVS. I avoid remote editing of the web content ...
most services don't even allow that and it's often slow behind my dsl
connnection, but I'm lucky and have arranged ssh access to the web tree because
the service provider (frozenwebhost.com) is a friend of the FlightGear project
so I can go physically manipulate things if I need to. We get special
attention from the provider, so I feel this is a pretty good place to host our
site. And I'm not afraid to put in a plug for frozenwebhost.com at the same
time ... I've been real happy with their
service. There's been a couple minor glitches over the years, but it's not
like when google goes off line and half the world heads to the pub because
there's nothing else you can actually accomplish.
In the forum I noticed that people have really bad issues to find certain
things on the homepage,
The web site has undergone reconstruction and reorganization a few times over
the years. It's a lot better than when it first started out. That said, of
course things could be improved. I'm not able to watch the forum closely.
What things were discussed there that are hard to find?
I don't mean to complain, but people within the FlightGear community
communicate in a large variety of ways, and many issues are discussed. I have
to work for a living so I can't sit on IRC all day, I can't read every forum
posting, and I'm lucky to at least try to skim all the dev list traffic and
pick out what I understand or what I think applies to or affects me.
There seems to be a perception that if someone has complained about something,
or mentioned something, or voiced an issue or concern ... and has done that
somewhere and at some point in the history of the universe, then I should be
aware of it, and should have addressed it already ...
Unfortunately, I'm well aware of my physical and mental and time limits because
I seem to be hitting up against them every day.
So if there are situations where there are problems or concerns, and I haven't
provided a mechanism for someone to be able to address this, then that's
certainly something where I'm fair game for criticism.
However, I seem to periodically take heat for issues that have never been
brought to my attention because apparently there is a general impression that
I'm able to read and remember every comment in every flightgear communication
forum. That's simply not the case, so if something hasn't been brought to my
personal attention, I don't feel it's tremendously fair to complain that I
haven't addressed the issue. I can't deal with things I don't know about.
And even when issues are brought to my attention ... we are all volunteers here
... I take time out of my paying work I'm a consultant and have to log my
individual working hours on the various projects I get paid for. So when I
take time out of my day for FlightGear activities (as I often do and am doing
right now) that cuts into my monthly income. It's not like I'm a salaried
employee that can sluff a few minutes here and there for non-work activities.
So when I put too much time into FlightGear, I really see the effects on my
bank account. I'm not complaining, I love being involved in the FilghtGear
project. I'm just pointing out that I continue to invest a huge amount of my
personal time into the project often at my own personal expense. So if
something is brought to my attention and still isn't addressed in a timely
manner, I'd simply request the same amount of patience you would give to
yourself or any other volunteer FlightGear developer.
I think we all (including some of the more negatively vocal people on this
list) have projects that haven't gotten done as fast as we hoped they would,
and I bet we all have unfinished work and work we've had to set aside when
personal and job priorities flare up and have to take precidence.
and all the advertisement make FlightGear-project doesn't look professionel.
Quick word on this subject ... the revenue helps maintain the site, pay for
domain names, etc. It's a balance of factors, but I prefer hosting our web
site with a professional service. That doesn't mean they are always perfect,
but if we piggy back off people's personal web sites or personal servers,
there's more of a chance that these could go offline with zero warning. Maybe
I'm getting old, but I've seen that happen a number of times now, and have been
on the scrambling end of trying to pull something together again when the
orginal content is no longer available, the person can't be contacted, etc.
There are always single points of failure ... even now.
I guess I would suggest that if there are problems with the system, it's great
to discuss them as you are doing now. I appreciate you voicing your issues,
and hopefully you can clarify some of the additional issues you reference but
do not detail. But at some point, with some people, it starts to seem like
they are more interested in arguing and trotting out all their perpetual sore
spots than finding ways to make the system work. And for those people, that's
ok if that's how you want to approach life, I'm a big boy, and all my clothes
are at least 50% asbestos :-) but it's certainly not productive and
motivational if your end goal is to accomplish something useful.
A Content Manage System could help with the issues on the calender, and giving
access to other developers to certain parts of the homepage,so it would be much
easier for you to maintain flightgear.org.
Do you get what I meant?
What do you mean by a content mangement system? Version control? Wiki?
Thanks,
Curt.
--
Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
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Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited
royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing
server and web deployment.
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