NUTS!!
was working on a draft and hit send by accident. to finish my comments.
waiting on word for a proposal to build a 737NG FTD certified by FAA at Level 5. Should know within the next few weeks, hopefully. That wil wipe me out for the next six months, but can still find some time to get the ball rolling with the VATSIM folks.
How about a show of hands? Is there enough interest and volunteers to organize a team to tackle the problem?
I can provide a dedicated machine and IP address to host the server and possibly a T1 line.
Jack
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] VATSIM support?
From: Curtis Olson <curtol...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, January 25, 2011 10:26 pm
To: chrison...@yahoo.ca, FlightGear developers discussions
<flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
HI Chris,
Here are a couple quick comment in reply ...My sense is that there are very few people who would outright oppose a vatsim interface to flightgear. I think most people would consider this is a good thing.
Here is my question/concern. If some developer gets approved by vatsim and signs the appropriate NDA's and then builds an interface from vatsim to flightgear, then sure, that could be an external "closed source" application that bridges the communication gap between FlightGear and VATSIM.
But here's the problem. Now anyone (good or evil) has a wide open, public, unsecured route into the vatsim network. The flightgear API's are open and you can inspect all the code and structures. So anyone could take the vatsim<->flightgear interface and leverage it to interject any kind of nonsense into the vatsim network. This is exactly what vatsim is trying to avoid by protecting their communication protocols. As soon as they allow a translator to be written with an open/published/documented protocol at the other end ... this is the very next best thing for someone wanting to do mischief.Please notice: this isn't me being negative about vatsim, or being negative about the idea of a vatsim interface for flightgear. I'd personally love to have it available one way or another. But I'm trying to place myself in the perspective of what the vatsim folks would think. Hopefully I'm way wrong, but if we lay it all out for them open and honestly up front so we aren't trying to sneak something past them, what do you think they would say?FlightGear doesn't have a binary plug in system so it's not possible for someone to write a closed source plugin to implement the vatsim protocol. It would have to be done as an entirely open-source module within FlightGear, or as an entirely separate external application that communicates with flightgear through some network protocol.So all that said, here's one more thing to ponder. FlightGear is a volunteer driven project. The people that pitch in and do the work get to decide what they will work on and how they will do it. We can discuss vatsim back and forth all day long, but until a volunteer steps forward who's willing (and able) to build the vatsim interface to flightgear, and who is willing to sign all the vatsim nda's, and who is willing to do whatever discussion and negotiation and strategizing and design work that is required to make the system function satisfactorily from the perspective of both vatsim and flightgear ... until such a person emerges, really all we can do is talk about it theoretically.Best regards,Curt.
On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Chris O'Neill wrote:
[PREFACE: I'm a FG end-user who's not a programmer, nor am I an
intellectual property rights attorney. My sole desire is to use FG as a
"realistic" flight similator, as opposed to using it as a fun "game."
Please consider the remarks below in that context. Thanks!]
I'll get to this in a moment, but first...
On Wed, 2011-01-19 at 19:15 -0300, Victhor wrote:
> VATSIM requires any developer to sign a NDA before having access to
> their network, so it's not possible to make a open source client. SB747
> was made before the NDA requirement, but I suppose sources can't be
> released due to obvious licensing issues.
Just to be clear, sb747 hasn't been "fixed" to report the proper
> It seems it has been fixed so that it reports you as the aircraft you're
> currently using, but I'm not sure.
aircraft but, rather, a workaround has been found whereby you file your
flight plan via simroutes.com and then once that's done you file a blank
flight plan with sb747. Since your simroutes.com flight plan contains
the aircraft type, that's what is reported on VATSIM,
Now, back to the whole licensing/NDA issue...
IMHO, and with all due respect to those who might disagree, while the
"ideal" would be that an FG<-->VATSIM "broker" (to use VATSIM's term)
would be open source, I do not understand why this has to be mandatory?
If VATSIM were saying that FG itself had to become closed-source for it
to connect to their network, then I'd be in total agreement. However,
that's NOT the case.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what VATSIM seems to be saying is that they
don't want "just anybody" trying to connect to their network, hence the
"only approved clients" policy, and in order to enforce that policy they
want to be the only source for releasing the source code. I'm not aware
of them wanting to extract licensing fees (i.e. earn income) for access
to the source code (right?), and it seems to me they're merely trying to
protect the integrity of their network. Is that so wrong?
What we have here is an opportunity to take FG to a whole new level, and
I'd *really* hate to see that opportunity rejected out-of-hand over this
issue. We say on one hand that FG is a "serious" flight simulation
environment (as opposed to merely being a "game") and, yet, when
presented with the possibility of linking FG to a "serious" air traffic
controlled online flying environment we immediately reject the idea
because a client to connect to that environment would not be open
source?
IMHO, the FG multiplayer environment will *never* match the realism and
professionalism of air traffic controlled online flying that VATSIM has
achieved. Yes, we have a handful of MP ATC's (jomo, redneck,
wookierabbit, and a few others), and those folks do a *fabulous* job.
But they're just a handful, and those of us who are seriously flying
under their direction are often overwhelmed by "gamers" who spawn into
MP on the runways, ignore ATC directions, and otherwise disrupt (either
accidentally or purposely) our efforts to mimick real-life flying under
ATC control.
By comparison VATSIM has *hundreds* of ATC's who must pass rigid
certification requirements before they "go to work" on the network.
VATSIM requires those who access the network to follow ATC directions,
and failing to do so will get you booted from that network pretty
quickly. It's possible on VATSIM to fly across North America, or even
transatlantic, and do the whole flight (including clearance and ground
control) under air traffic control the entire time, while being passed
to multiple controllers in the process. I have listened to real-life
ATC comms on liveatc.net and I have flown FG on VATSIM and, frankly,
it's pretty hard to tell the difference between the two.
So, while some of us may not like the idea of having to sign an NDA in
order to develop an FG<-->VATSIM broker/client, the simple fact of the
matter is this... those of us who want to use FlightGear to fly online
in a realistic and professional air traffic controlled environment
*can't* currently do that in MP (and, IMHO, likely never will be able to
do it), but we *can* do it in VATSIM.
In closing, the squawkgear/sb747 "solution" is an exceptional "hack"
that does work, but if we *really* want to get serious about providing
FG users with the capability of using FG as a "serious" flight
simulation environment, then IMHO we should give this a serious look.
Regards,
Chris
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