RE: [t13] Inquiries into SATA material during ATA/8 review

[Dees, Brian M]

Title: Inquiries into SATA material during ATA/8 review

John,     Thanks for the clarification on the BIST Activate inquiry.  I do see the inconsistency between the state diagram and the noted section.  I believe this inconsistency should be addressed and will investigate further.       Regarding the discussion on "Freeze", there are severe situations in which potentially the best option is to wait for a reset (COMRESET or other) from the host to restore the device to an operational state.  If the issue is regarding the "freeze" term itself I think that can be worked, but the error scenario that it's intended to address is still valid.  The COMINIT response from the device is a possible solution to get out of a similar error case, but is not a requirement.  In such cases where sending a COMINIT (or any device response for that matter) is not feasible, a COMRESET from the host may be the option.  This is specifically the case where this terminology is trying to address.  The "freeze" term seems to be used here to give an idea of the state while waiting for the reset from the host, changing this to a new or clearer terminology shouldn't be an issue.  I don't see a simple removal of the entire content for this area should be removed, as the error case being described does not fit into the other three categories, where some type of notification is always feasible by the device (Abort, Retry, Track).   Regards, Brian From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Masiewicz Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:45 PM To: forum@t13.org Subject: RE: [t13] Inquiries into SATA material during ATA/8 review Brian, I don’t think you asked quite the right questions as posed in the meeting, especially regarding the BIST. BIST was not listed are re-transmittable in the list, but if you look at the Device Transport BIST Activate state diagram, a retry is explicitly directed. This was the inconsistency we were trying correct. I don’t have any problem adding a note, but the two section are not in agreement, thus the request for clarification, it there is any.   The issue with “Freeze” is that it is recommended. I cannot think of any condition where I would recommend a drive “Freeze” as a policy. (I have no objection to hosts freezing) Freeze means rely on timeouts, which in ATA are as long as 30 seconds. This does not sound like a good recommendation for error handling if you know you are in an unrecoverable situation.  Freeze, as discussed in the meeting, implies do nothing, and respond to nothing (except COMRESET).  If a device is so perturbed that it unrecoverable and it knows this, certainly a COMINIT  from the device or COMRESET from the host might be recommended, but not “freezing”.   I prefer eliminating the unnecessary recommendation, since it offers nothing in terms of error recovery, but rather says do not perform error recovery. Similarly, it is in a section entitled “Software error recovery” and I would not recommend that the software “freeze”.   Please, however, review the state machines on the BIST retry, and reconsider your recommendation.   John Masiewicz Western Digital   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dees, Brian M Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:44 AM To: forum@t13.org Subject: [t13] Inquiries into SATA material during ATA/8 review   Hi,         During the review of the ATA/8 Serial Transport material in the February T13 Summit a few items were given to me as the liaison into the SATA-IO to research the meaning or intent.  Below are the questions and responses I've recorded in finding the details. 1. What was the original intent of listing 'Freeze' as a valid category for error responses? (see sections 10.1 & 10.5.2 of d1697r0a-ATA8-ST, where Freeze has been removed) <Original reference in sections 11.1 (pg 273) and 11.5.2 (pg 279) of Serial ATA 1.0a.> Freeze is the condition the drive enters where a host action like a reset is required to recover the drive. Whether you admit it or not, it is not unusual for drives to enter this state. Serial ATA might have been the first to explicitly call this behavior out, although it is not an unusual occurrence. In hopelessly messed up situations, it is probably safer for a drive to halt and await the host cleaning up with a reset than it might be for the drive to proceed and potentially exacerbate the situation. 2. Why isn't BIST Activate included in the list of frame types that can be retransmitted? (see section 10.4.3.2 of d1697r0a-ATA8-ST) <Original reference in section 11.4.2.2 (page 278) of Serial ATA 1.0a.> BIST is not a function performed during the normal course of operation for a disk drive. Since it’s an engineering lab-bench function to be used in controlled conditions by knowledgeable experts, it does not have the kinds of automatic recovery that normal user functions might have. In some lab settings, it could even be detrimental for auto-recovery operations to be performed by the interface, since some lab functions are for the purpose of examining such behaviors. If the BIST Activate function fails in a lab setting, the engineer is presumably sufficiently capable to know what is happening and attempt the operation over again.         With the understanding of the above explanations, I believe that 'Freeze' should be re-inserted back into the ATA/8 material and that BIST Activate should still not exist in the list referred to by question #2.  This would require three total edits, although minor, into the next revision of the document. Regards, Brian