Jonathan and Fred, I appreciate what both of you have written. The avant garde is for me, largely as Jonathan mentioned ‘intro film class’ which I guess every film studies department briefly touches upon in the 1st year. Fred, the idea that ‘Underground’ could still work in a repressive country, is an interesting point and I will research that some more.
Thank you and stay healthy, Jaime Sent from my iPad > On 2 Mar 2021, at 17:46, Fred Camper <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Dear Jonathan, > > I mostly agree with what you wrote too, including your disagreement with me. > You are getting at many important nuances. I'm not a huge fan of Rose > Lowder's films, but when I heard her introduce her work as "experimental," as > in, "I make these not certain of what I am going to get," I had to > acknowledge, in accordance with my "dogma" that there are no rules for making > art, that her position is as valid as any other. > > Certainly seeing my first "avant-garde" film at 15 felt like an "avant-garde" > experience, in that I had never seen anything like it. Most single screen > work being made in decades since, however, does seem to be working, at least > on a superficial viewing, within existing traditions. > > In my experience with young film students reared on a diet of YouTube and the > rest, most are not all that surprised by anything. > > Fred Camper > Chicago > > On 3/2/2021 10:11 AM, Jonathan Walley wrote: >> I agree with everything Fred says here, with one exception, I guess. Un >> Chien Andalou (or Mothlight, or Meshes of the Afternoon, etc. etc. etc.) is >> still avant-garde to an 18-year-old hayseed in an intro film class. >> Generally “avant-garde” is thought of as an historical designation and so, >> as Fred implies “It might work in a repressive country in which you could >> not really show your films”), but I also tend to think of it as an effect. >> In that case, the relevant history is not global, but personal - the history >> of the hayseed. >> >> [I know “hayseed” is impolite, but I just mean it as blanket term for >> innocent eyes, and after all, I do teach in Ohio]. >> >> I do think that underground is more specific than experimental or >> avant-garde, with historically-bound connotations (certain variants of >> experimental film output of the 1960s into the early 1980s, with punk film >> and the cinema of transgression as examples). While I am wary of the >> implication of “experimental” to which Fred alludes (as in, “they’re just >> experimenting; eventually they’ll get it right”), I still think it’s the >> least loaded, most neutral term to encompass a cinematic tradition that, if >> heterogeneous to the point of anarchy, is nonetheless discernible. >> “Underground” and “avant-garde” can be considered sub-categories, I suppose. >> >> For what it’s worth… >> >> JW >> >> >> Jonathan Walley >> Associate Professor >> Department of Cinema >> Denison University >> https://denison.edu/people/jonathan-walley >> >> >> >> >>> On Mar 2, 2021, at 10:53 AM, Fred Camper <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I've given this issue, along with that of "experimental," more thought than >>> it perhaps deserves. >>> >>> I don't think "underground" works at all today. It only barely worked in >>> the 60s. It might work in a repressive country in which you could not >>> really show your films. Our culture, whatever one thinks of it, has become >>> too open and too diverse for this word. But I don't think "avant-garde" >>> works either. So much has been done; most filmmakers are working within >>> existing traditions. Nor is "experimental" of much use, except for a >>> minority who, for better or for worse, feel that the word is right for >>> them. A response to that word from one filmmaker decades ago: "I made many >>> experiments while working on this film. I left them behind in my editing >>> room. What you will see is a finished work." >>> >>> On the other hand, just calling these works "films" doesn't work either; >>> your viewers will be for most such films be disappointed to find no >>> evidence of Batman, or Luke Skywalker, or similarFrame. We need a >>> neologism, but I have never found one. >>> >>> Fred Camper >>> Chicago >>> >>> On 3/2/2021 2:33 AM, Jaime Cleeland wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> How would y’all differentiate between calling a filmmaker ‘Underground’ as >>>> opposed to ‘Avant-Garde’? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Jaime >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Frameworks mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://mail.film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org >> >> > -- > Frameworks mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
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