Robert L Sowders([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2002.03.28 03:39:51 +0000:
> Greg is absolutely correct.

yes, i agree

> These whiners, who constantly moan for code while never contributing any, 
> should contribute the code if they want it changed. 

being a terrible c-coder i have to admit that, after having a warm
fuzzy feel in the freebsd community since years, i did not contribute
more than a single line of code (wich, when i recall it right, was a fix
to the overall limit of FD_SETSIZE inducing severe resource limitations 
to a variety of daemons, including apache, that could not open more than
256 files/sockets at once). what i did here in germany was to convince
customers that freebsd was much more stable and performant for their
setups than other os alternatives, and that, if i am allowed to say,
with success. with my heritage from systems administration and systems
deployment, i am neither a kernel hacker nor a c-wizard, but that's okay
(in my opinion, of course) for me. what i did and do contribute are
ideas (well, some may have been pretty wacky) and i highly appreciate
the effort of all contributing people, creating a serious amount of
high-quality code and answering the many questions posted on the
mailing lists.

> Also I shudder to think that those who customize their systems would 
> actually learn how to use all the tools available to them to prevent a 
> makeworld from overwriting or undoing their customizations. :)

this, i already learned quite a long time ago, but this does not really
fix the -RELEASE giving no option on how to select subsystems before
they are installed in the filesystem during bootstrap installation.
and, yes, i did an own release based on -STABLE for internal use for
quite some time, but this turned out to be a very time-consuming

> I wish that we could assign a bitch rating to some of these emails.  Say a 
> sliding bitch scale depending on how much code the bitchee has 
> contributed.  Then they could easily be filtered to /dev/null. 
> Waddayathink? ;)

;-) i know, that my posts on the base dist "completeness" issues did not
gain me a hundred points in core and the rest of the community, but i
perceive the "reality" my way, in my eyes, thus certainly biased, too.
i also get your point that, with my "bitch level", my reputation in the
community might not have improved in the last days, but the lack of
package installation manifests in general (mainly for contrib/*) is an
important point in freebsd installation, deployment and administration.
i and several other people do not consider this as a bikeshed question,
but you are right, that code does not write itself. therefor - in my
little spare time - i am currently looking into installation tracking 
and also netbsd's syspkg concept and implementation.

> Much ado about nothing, so far, RTFM.

you of course mean the fine manual that comes with /usr/src/release ;-)

since i spun off the whole mess, that obviously upset a lot of people,
and i've received several very emotional responses (which, i must say,
have nothing to do with discussion of the technical issue) i will look
into the options mentioned above and contact the responsible folks when 
i got something done.

i have to add, that i never had the impression of the freebsd community
in general being based on emotions rather than on technical facts. i
really appreciate that greg spent his time on writing down his point of
view, the facts about his part in the sendmail/freebsd and the problems
he is seeing. his mail perfectly illustrates the professional attitude
behind the development of freebsd, and this spirit makes it the favourite
server os for many people throughout the world.


> Gravity is an unforgiving motherfucker.
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