Hi Bruce,
I have to agree on your reasonings, as they are obviously true.
I'm quite using my CB radio, and in fact - the main fascination is based
upon meeting new people. With encryption, the only thing you 'mett' is
more noise and more interrupts of signals! Those who want encrypted
communications can use 'Short Range Devices' using ISM frequencies.
These are aleready common and therefore it seems unnecessary to
'reinvent the weel'.
Of course, AR used to be the predecessor of IRC, far before the age of
cheap mass-telecommunications.
Yet, AR was only allowed in the past as long as it do not harm state
regulated communications via phone or telegraphy.
It's the natural being of technology that it does not make a difference
between good and bad.
It seems encouraged to notify users that encryption is not intended and
may not be allowed in amateur radio band by the character of amateur
radio as well as juristinctions.
Codec2 was intended to help AR to change into digital by providing an
open-source codec.
The general allowance of usage according to FCC rule 97.309(b), as well
as ''exportation'' after U.S. ITAR 120-125 is definetly bound upon
keeping the standard 'as-it-is' by mostly advancing it's functionality
Encryption will deny the FCC usage allowance by definition and will
require conformity after the ''Wassenaar Arrangement'' as it would
become a ''dual-use technology'' if implemented as part of Codec2.
Nevertheless, it seems ridiculous to prohibit encryption as you cannot
prevent it.
But those who wish it for specific applications, should do it on their
own, and may not call their product to be using Codec2.
I would like to encrypt it - but then I would use it via 40 MHz ISM-Band
only, as this is not an AR band, but an ISM band, mostly used by RC
toys. The CB band is also an ISM - Band, and also often used for
short-range devices, but it has a siginifcant usage for voice communication.
As it then would become a ''data transmission'', I could only use 5
channels (of 40 CEPT), which are mostly stuffed with remote - controls,
and are known as very noisy...
[Note: CB radio is obviously specified for analog DX-ing - so Codec2
would only be allowed on these channels anyway.]
My comparison with the Cryptophon / Cryptron is not matching, as this is
an 'unintentional use' of Codec2 [like the Asterisk - Plugin is]!
Thanks,
Netzblockierer
Am 15.03.2013 21:49, schrieb Bruce Perens:
> Hi Netzblocker,
>
> I regret that we must simply agree to differ on this. I have made it
> my #1 priority this year to prevent encryption from coming to Amateur
> radio in the U.S. and wherever else possible. This for several reasons:
>
> * Amateur radio isn't for private communications. Encryption makes it
> much too easy to keep a communication private.
> * Encrypted frequencies are no longer shared frequencies. Hams who
> don't know the key can neither monitor nor participate.
> * Encryption defeats self-policing in the Amateur service.
> * Encryption facilitates the use of frequencies for purposes we don't
> desire in the Amateur spectrum.
> * Amateur Radio must be _harmless_ in order to continue to be
> supported by governments. With encryption, there's no longer any
> expectation that it's harmless.
>
> Since we are making a tool (Codec2) that is very easy to use for
> encryption, it's our responsibility to keep it from harming the
> Amateur service. I have no objection to your making use of it with
> encryption in some other radio service.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> Netzblockierer <netzblockie...@privatdemail.net> wrote:
>
> Am 15.03.2013 06:11, schrieb Barry White:
>
> Netzb ? I suspect you missed a critical part of the
> discussion. It has never been about normal AR communications.
> It was about when the government authorities controlling an
> emergency situation require us to transmit information such as
> lists of dead victims or similar sensitive information and
> request encryption.
>
> Well, we both know that in this case, there are already existing systems
> that are ready for use.
> For example, the ''Harpoon'' - System, developed for the NATO by
> AEG/Telefunken, which is still today a leading Hardware Platform for
> secure radio communications without any other infrastructure:
>
> Frequencies: 2 kHz - 30 kHz
> in 0,001 kHz -
> steps
>
> As you obviously know, these frequencies allow transcontinental
> connectivity (~ 6000km) without satellites due to Inonosperic reflection.
>
> These devices have been packed in suitcases, weighting about 8kg
> (including batteries) and allow autonomous transmission/recieving and
> encryption/decryption of messages as well as forwarding them...
>
>
> After my knowledge, Australia owns several of them due to their ANZUS -
> membership. So it seems very unlikely that they will use infrastructure
> owned by civilians (which applies to most hams! - Please correct me if
> I'm wrong!).
> In the case, they would need an encryption, they would do this via
> embedded hardware. In such cases, they apply the need-to-know -
> principle, and may earlier confiscate your entire ham - equipment rather
> than involving you, except you are in some sort of organization that may
> be given order to do so (e.g. police, fire-brigade,
> civil-defense, etc.)...
>
>
> Nevertheless, I don't see there any sense in implementing a technology
> while prohibiting the use of it for the general public.
> So if hams are not allowed to use encryption, and do not want to disobey
> their regulative authorities in this case, why should they then take
> care of this problem?
>
> For me, it seems ridiculous to do so if it is not intended to be used
> (with or without consent of authorities) in regular use.
> The fact, that encryption is banned for AR applications still feeds my
> theory that truly secure communication is not in the interest of
> governments, but I think this is going ''too much tinfoil hat'' for this
> mailing-list.
>
>
>
> Actually, I'm working on a solution for end-to-end encrypted telephony
> and data transmissions using Codec2 and other open-source software. In
> the end, it could operate paralell streams of voice and data, offering
> to split
> the bandwith 50:50 or offer the entire bandwith to one service.
> Seems quite hard, but ony Codec2 seems capable to keep bandwith low
> enough for usage via public phone booths (most acoustic couples only
> offer 2400 bit/s due to the microphone's - and speaker's quality, which
> is quite poor... Other codecs such as AMBE or MELP are patented and
> thereof are excluded for use. If someone is really interested in
> implementing them, he'll be able to do so on his own...
>
> The last one who developed such a hardware that allows encrypted
> telephony (and was planed to enable encrypted data transmissions, too)
> was murdered in 1998 by being hung with a steel cable, then cooled down
> in a fridge and hanged again in a park in the middle of Berlin.
> His name was ''TRON'' See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tron_(hacker
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tron_%28hacker>)
> for details...
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Netzblockierer
>
>
>
> Barry VK2AAB Wicen Liason, Hornsby Kuringai Emergency
> Management Committee Netzblockierer wrote:
>
> I'm quite woundering why Encryption has been topic this
> late. It is possible to use an encryption. The most simple
> way would be a Diffie-Hellman Key-Exchange (even
> over-the-Air) and then using AES-256 bitwise; making a
> buffer of 256 bits before transmission necessary... But
> even if the entire encrypion would be specified and
> open-licensed alike Codec2, I do not believe that any
> regulatory authority, like the FCC, allows it... In
> Germany, the authorities forbid the usage of encryption on
> CB-Band; even when used on data transmission channels,
> saying that it cannot be identified by them or other users
> as intentional broadcast and may declare it as RF-noise
> and excessive disturbing of other frequency - users... It
> seems likewise the GSM [pseudo] 'encryption' A8/A5/A3,
> that such technology that truly provides security (GSM
> never has!) violates the ''Wassenaar Threaty'', by
> declaring, that it could be used by 'bad/wrong guys', too.
> In detail, when operating a CB-Gateway, it may be called
> an ''[Mobile/Wireless] Telephony Service Provider'' and
> automatically becomes subject to ''Lawful Interception'',
> that enforces the operator to decrypt all traffic and
> refuse the transmission of traffic that cannot be
> decrypted. However, implementing an encryption seems quite
> useful. Am 12.03.2013 21:44, schrieb Bruce Perens:
>
> Hi Doug, Yes, I'd heard of this before. Our mission,
> this time, it authenticate without obscuring the
> message content. So, chaffing probably won't be part
> of the picture. Thanks Bruce On 03/12/2013 12:56 PM,
> Douglas Quagliana wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce, Just to muddy the waters... there is a
> way to preserve confidentiality without using any
> encryption, but I don't know if this satisfies
> things like HIPPA. See
> http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/Chaffing.txt
>
> From the above article: In summary, we have
> introduced a new technique for
> confidentiality, called ``chaffing and
> winnowing''. This technique can provide
> excellent confidentiality of message contents
> without involving encryption or steganography.
>
> Douglas
>
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