Hi Eric Your observation / suggestion is brutally accurate and civilised brutality is an index of how far the civilisation has advanced in its life cycle. In my particular civilisation brutality is institutionalised as follows - 'saam daam dand bhed' (sometimes attributed to Chanakya - India's Machiavelli). This loosely translates as "reasoning, price, punishment, terror". When a citizen agitates against the King, the first step is to pacify the agitator with reason and sweet words. When he persists - coopt him with blandishments, after that punish him by putting him in jail or whatever, Finally let loose a reign of terror, brutality and division of ranks. When even this fails the player must knock down his king and resign.
Here's a link to another interesting book [http://transbooks.com/cata/lus02.html] titled "When The Amerindians Were Vassals: Power Equations in Northern Brazil (1750-1800) by Ângela Domingues and translated by Roopanjali Roy" Sarbajit On 4/28/10, ERIC P. CHARLES <[email protected]> wrote: > I would suggest that what is at stake is efficiency. Those who can do > civilization efficiently can also do brutality efficiently. Those who do > civilization grandly, are in a position to brutality grandly. The notion > that > civilization and brutality are mutually exclusive is clearly proved wrong by > history. > > Eric > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 05:48 PM, "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Your comments struck me as quite profound, >> >>The brutality seen in these civilizations is a manifestation of the >>instability of the ruling powers. Powers that are confident do not resort >> to >>such extravagant efforts, those that are unsure(paranoid) are going >>to use >>as much horror to intimidate as possible. >>The scale of the horror is simply a derivative of the available resources. >>The essential significance is that human beings resort to terror tactics >>when they feel threatened in some manner. It is the natural response of a >>frightened human being to externalize their fear with grotesque displays. >> >>We are a little backward in evaluating a society by the quantity of heads >> on >>display we should be looking for societies that do not display their fear >> so >>prominently. >> >>On the other hand what is it about society that makes its lkeaders os >>paranoid that they engage in this display. Do civilization and horror go >>hand in hand? >> >>Some how the Idyllic nonchalant Dwarves of Tolkien, do not seem capable of >>such dramatic displays. >> >>Grandiosity of civilizations is easily observed but that same grandiosity >>applies to Buildings architecture as well as death circuses. >>The Human need for Grand Gestures may be at the root of civilization. Our >>need for Theatre creates civilization, not efficiency. I always wondered >> why >>the apparently sensible Romans wasted so much on Spectacles. >> >>At one time in London people paid for seats at public executions. Ticket >>scalpers made a good shilling out of famous executions. Not long afterwards >>we saw human society supply the appetite for blood with motion pictures. >> >>Hitler saw himself as a Grand Architect as well as the savior of his >> nation. >>I think Napoleon laughed when someone suggested the English might step in >>and defeat his ambitions and he remarked derisively " Not the English , >>they >>are just a nation of little shopkeepers" I probably screwed that up perhaps >>someone will correct me. >> >>Perhaps the need for gods was simply an extension of this basic need for >>Human Beings to be awed before they would pay attention and give respect to >>leaders. >> >> "If it can't hurt you then you don't have to pay attention" >>So the psychopaths in charge know that the only thing subjects notice is a >>lot of bright Red Blood events. Those psychopaths seemed to understand >> human >>nature better than most psychologists considering the success record. >> >>If this were a system of agents then this would appear to be situation >> where >>a single agent discovers a method whereby it can get the absolute attention >>of all other agents by employing some low level attention activating >> signal. >>Perhaps releasing Histamine into the cellular environment or the smell of >>blood in a wolf pack are equivalent. Once you have everybody's attention >>what you do next is probably based on the ethics of the culture. >> >>If brutality is a sign of psychological distress in the ruling elites one >>would suspect Brutality to increase as a defeat nears, on the other hand if >>Brutality is simply an attention focusing device then Blood circuses should >>preceed expansion phases of the society. >> >>Any comments out there, perhaps I have already heard the answer, Hitler >>accelerated the brutality but in secret, the Mayans, Romans, and Aztecs >> made >>it quite public so the distinguishing feature is the degree of publicity, >>perhaps? This adds another aspect to the thread, the public brutality was >> in >>some way much less than the secret Brutality of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot >>(Khmer Rouge) >> >> >> >> >> >>Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky >>Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), >>M.Sc.(Biology) >> >>120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. >>Winnipeg, Manitoba >>CANADA R2J 3R2 >>(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax >>[email protected] >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >> Behalf >>Of Jochen Fromm >>Sent: April 28, 2010 3:30 PM >>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn >> >>In the book "The ancient Maya" from Robert Sharer >>he says "before we decry practices such as human >>sacrifice, we should remember that Europeans of >>500 years ago burned people alive in the name of >>religion and submitted 'heretics' to an array of >>tortures and protracted executions" >> >>I wonder why civilization and barbarism go >>often hand in hand? The Romans for example >>were very civilized, but also very brutal. >>It seems as if a system becomes especially >>brutal if it's existence in threatened >>(the church by heretics in the Middle Ages >>which lead to inquisition, the Romans by >>insurgents which lead to crucification, the Nazis in >>WWII..) The concentration camps of the Nazis >>turned into real death factories when the >>existence of the Nazi regime was threatened >>towards the end of the war. >> >>Maybe this is the reason why the Aztecs >>- who were even worse than the Maya >>when it comes to human sacrifices - >>developed a high culture (including >>hieroglyphic writing systems and >>elaborate temples) and yet drowned in >>all the blood.. Because a small number of >>tyrannic rulers knew their existence was >>questionable and threatened.. >> >>-J. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky" <[email protected]> >>To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" >><[email protected]> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:08 AM >>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Palenque, Chichen Itza and Katyn >> >> >>> My my how elitist we are discussing the brutalities of vanished >>> civilizations. Those ancient butchers were so grotesque they did each >>> murder >>> one at a time. Just imagine the effort involved, each methodical death >>> blow >>> by death blow. Such brutes, in retrospect. They must have had tag teams >>> of >>> executioners on high holidays switching arms as they grew weary. They >>> probably had a drum roll to accompany the changing of the Blades. I can >>> just >>> see the flint knappers running up the stairs with arm loads of >>> replacement >>> inserts. Quick quick snap to it boys there is a rhythm to maintain for >>> these >>> special ceremonies. >>> >>> Only an academic can think to disregard the recent activities on the news >>> and Just 70 years ago, Katyn. ( I was told it took teams of machine >>> gunners >>> all day to dispatch and fill the pits. They did not even have time to >>> remove >>> the wallets and personal items. A rush job.) >>> >>> Was I mistaken did I hear of seven heads delivered by the Taliban only >>> yesterday. And modern Mexicans are every bit as inventive as their >>> distant >>> ancestors. Do you think they used electric saws for seven heads or did >>> they >>> still use flint maces? >>> >>> Lets tsk, tsk all those brutal Mesoamericans. And the death toll from >>> white >>> diseases in North America has anyone ever come up with realistic numbers. >>> >>> Tsk tsk, I defy any archeologist to turn up anything like Auscwitz or >>> Katyn >>> Civilization is organized and focused brutality. We have just become >>> better >>> at it none of us would waste so much effort for so few heads. >>> >>> What is remarkable is not the head count but the incredibly inefficient >>> ritualized waste of resources these people conducted. We have surpassed >>> them >>> in every measurable manner and we don't even leave evidence behind to >>> implicate us anymore. Katyn was a sloppy job. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr.Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky >>> Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), >>M.Sc.(Biology) >>> >>> 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. >>> Winnipeg, Manitoba >>> CANADA R2J 3R2 >>> (204) 2548321 Phone/Fax >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >> >>============================================================ >>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> >>============================================================ >>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> >> >> > > > > Eric Charles > > Professional Student and > Assistant Professor of Psychology > Penn State University > Altoona, PA 16601 > > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
