Steve S.,
You and I are the only two participants in that discussion to have presented any empirical evidence. In the spirit of experimental collegiality, would you try my experiment, and report back to me. Fill a basin with water Set it to spinning in a concerted way. Be careful not to impose any more turbulence than you have to. Just help the water to decide which way it is going to spin. Now pull the plug. Watch the water level fall while also watching the organization of the vortex. At some point the natural vortex will fall in line with the artificial vortex you have imposed, or vv. When that happens, the rate at which the water line moves down the basin wall will slow dramatically while the vortex spins ferociously. You will think for a moment . this could go on forever . and then it doesnt. If the gradient is the water, above, no water below gradient, AND the gradient dissipation consists of moving the water downward (all suspicious assumptions), then the vortex is certainly slowing the dissipation of that gradient. If, on the other hand, the gradient has something to do with energy, which I dont understand, obviously¸ then somebody like SG might argue that the very ferocity of the ineffectually spinning vortex is natures way of working off the energy gradient, like somebody exercising after a large thanksgiving dinner. The idea would be that a ferociously spinning vortex is a better way to dissipate the potential energy in the water than having the water flow down through the drain. So nature chooses that path. Thus, the same facts (the formation of the vortex slows the draining of the water) could be seen as supporting or countering the theory that dissipative structures hasten dissipation. Which means I have to have a better idea of what is being dissipated by a dissipatory structure. Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org <http://www.cusf.org/>
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