Ah i was mentioning the exosphere because it was very relevant to the question about layering/mixing of gases. Hydrogen is on the most outer layer as would be expected. I do imagine alot of this comes from space ions as well.
**************************** Greg Sonnenfeld “Two h's walk into a bar. The first one says, "What is this? Some kind of physics joke?” On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > What means "atmosphere" anyway? For the purposes of this discussion, I > have been assuming "Troposphere" which is roughly where most "interesting" > phenomena happens... like human habitation, most "life", most of what we > call "weather", etc. The "Stratosphere" is also interesting and important > for lots of reasons, but except for some jet (civilian and military) > activity, not much going on with humans or life (again, excepting bacteria > and some high flying birds, and the occasional Everest climber). > > In the diagram below, the "troposphere" occupies the bottom .2mm or so... > (10km).... Bruce sez "no H nor He" and Greg sez "Lots of H"... it just > depends on how you define the "atmosphere". My colloquial preference is > with Bruce on this... Troposphere and maybe Stratosphere.... the rest is > "near space" to me.. polluted with various ions in densities high enough to > bother orbiting (and re-entering) vehicles and affect the > heating/cooling/UV load on the planet but otherwise irrelevant to the most > of us. What was a gaseous mixture becomes more of a Plasma somewhere up > there. > > > [image: figure94] > from: > http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cairns/teaching/lecture16/node2.html > where there are formulae for those who need formulae along with pictures > too. > > from my vague memory of my senior physics project.... most of the > interesting questions for NASA were in the large range known on earth as > the Thermosphere and Mesosphere... which to most of us here is definitely > "upper atmosphere"... > > You are correct, the air at the topmost level of the atmosphere, the > exosphere, is primarily composed of hydrogen. This hydrogen most > likely comes from decomposition of atmospheric water into hydrogen and > oxygen. > > You're also right that there is a gradient of gasses as you move from > sea level to space. If you look at the basic principles, (excluding > weather etc) you have diffusion mixing the gases while you have > gravitational forces separating them. > > I'm not sure how much of the mixing we see is from diffusion and what > is from other forces (such as weather). That'd be an interesting > problem to look at. (Perhaps see how much experimentally measured > gradients differs from what we calculate from a simple diffusion / > gravity model. ) > > > **************************** > Greg Sonnenfeld > > > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 6:09 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <e...@psu.edu> > <e...@psu.edu> wrote: > > As, oddly, no one seems to have mentioned it yet... I'm pretty sure that air > does separate. Am I wrong to think that "air" at a high enough altitude is > mostly hydrogen? So the question is not what keeps it from separating, but > what keeps it from separating more fully... right? > > Eric > > > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 01:13 AM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> > <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > > Nick - > > I'd like to interject here that your original question about the mixing (or > not) of atmospheric components was a very legitimate question... > > I hope (many) of the responses you got (Bruce's in particular) helped dispel > the mystery of what we all know circumstantially (though I'm not sure most > of us would notice if the O2 levels were elevated after a quiet, still > night?). > > While I may personally have some specific experience (as anecdotally > described) with the formalities of these problems I think it is assumed that > most of us here do not! > > The innocence of many of your questions as posed should be more overtly > valued... many of us are busy asking (quietly) similar or related > questions. > > Don't let the unregulated banter that follows some of your questions be > mistaken for anything but what it is, a good excuse for banter... Doug and I > perhaps being the worst of the crowd for that. > > So... I say let the discussion of mixtures and solutions and miscibility > continue... I have to admit that I have a "working" knowledge of miscibility > but not enough understanding of it's foundations! > > - Steve > > > SS wrote: > > > > But are you surprised that your bottle of wine, beer, or hard liquor hasn't > seperated before you even get to pour it? > > > > NST REPLIES: > > > > Well I guess I am surprised by that. Whiskey (etc) is just a mixture of > alcohol and water,no? I suspect that there is some sort of distinction > lurking here between a “solution” of something and a “mixture” of > something. > > > > > > > > From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com > <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf > Of Steve Smith > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:45 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] atmospherics > > > > Nick - > > I think Bruce just gave a good calibration on this with his great > description not only of why or why not to breathe Uranium Hexaflouride (cuz > you will have to stand on your head to empty it from your lungs!) but also > the relative density of the gasses in question. > > Try the analogy of mixed drinks. Every good bartender knows that you put > the alcohol into the glass first so that when you add the water-based stuff > (tonic, seltzer, juice, etc.) the two mix naturally. If you pour the > alcohol *over* the watery things, you risk the alcohol "floating" rather > than mixing. We could go into the implications of low and high "proof" > alcohol, etc. > > But are you surprised that your bottle of wine, beer, or hard liquor hasn't > seperated before you even get to pour it? > > AS I think Doug mentioned, thermal energy alone is a good mixer... even > without the constant stirring of wind and convection... > > - Steve > > Sorry. Mixed up the weight of N and O. So my question should have been, > Why don’t we wake up in a layer of oxygen on still nights? > > > > Which brings us to your question about what would make me expect that a > mixture would separate out into its lighter and heavier components. You > tell me! Other things being equal, don’t heavier things tend to sink when > mixed with lighter ones? > > > > N > > > > > > > > From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com > <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf > Of Douglas Roberts > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 2:43 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] atmospherics > > > > Let's not ignore temperature: my farts are a good 20 degrees F above > ambient (at present), and tend to rise before mixing into the unfortunate > nearby environs. And, just in case you were wondering what the composition > of a fart was: > > > > The major components of the flatus, which are odorless, by percentage > are:[4] > > § Nitrogen: 20–90% > > § Hydrogen: 0–50% > > § Carbon dioxide: 10–30% > > § Oxygen: 0–10% > > § Methane: 0–10% > > > > 4. ^ "Human Digestive System". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved > 2007-08-22. > > > > --Doug > > > > On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org> > <r...@elf.org> wrote: > > Nick -- > > > > N2 weighs 28 gm/mole, O2 weighs 32 gm/mole, Ar weighs 40 gm/mole, CO2 weighs > 44 gm/mole, and H2O weighs 18 gm/mole. > > > > Why would anyone expect the lighter components of a mixture to fall down > more than the heavier ones? If anything, you'd expect the heavier ones to > concentrate toward the bottom. > > > > And why would anyone expect a mixture to spontaneously separate into pure > components? That happens in real life like where? > > > > As it happens, CO2 is the heaviest normal component and it does pool in > confined spaces often enough that CO2 alarms are available in hardware > stores. Propane, C3H8, weighs 44 gm/mole and is notorious for pooling in > confined spaces and then exploding, often in the bilge of a boat and > spectacularly. > > > > -- rec -- > > > > On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Nicholas > Thompson<nickthomp...@earthlink.net> <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > So, somebody asked me, in my role as a weather nerd, how come the nitrogen > in the atmosphere doesn’t all fall to the bottom on still nights and > suffocate us all. I asked the question > ofstupid-answers-to-stupid-questions-asked-by-stupid-people.com and THEY said, > well, there’s just too much going on. N molecules and the O molecules are > just too busy, what with convection and windcurrents, and all, to separate, > even on still nights. Now, that business doesn’t prevent cold molecules of > Nitrogen and Oxygen to separate from warm ones, or wet ones (not sure what > that means) to separate from dry ones. I was hoping that somebody on FRIAM > could give some sort of a clue what kind of a mixture AIR is? It is > suddenly seeming kinda special. > > > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > http://www.cusf.org > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > Eric Charles > > Professional Student and > Assistant Professor of Psychology > Penn State University > Altoona, PA 16601 > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > wha > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
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