So you bought into the USA "organization"? You pay taxes that kill people, that fight wars you detest.
This may seem absurd, but I have kept a passport valid over the years since I realized I don't buy completely into the USA organization. I may find I have to leave. At least the church has come out vocally against all wars. .. and I'd prefer we carry on over a beer, not over bits! -- Owen On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Douglas Roberts <[email protected]>wrote: > A thoughtful and well articulated response Owen, thanks. > > We only appear to differ regarding your distinction between "Organization" > and "Community". The way look at it is that if you voluntarily join an > organization, you have become a part of it. Period. If you allow that > organization to continue to fail a moral obligation, every member of that > organization shares an equal part of the blame. There is no "them" and > "us" in the Catholic church. There is you. Deal with your problems. > > --Doug > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Sorry to be late responding .. we're getting ready for a trip to Italy >> for 6 weeks and boy, does that require a LOT of work! >> >> As I understand it, you're pointing out that the catholic church was >> culpably silent on the child sex scandals. I TOTALLY agree! >> >> I'd like to distinguish between organizations and the community. >> Although the organization failed as you say, the community did not. There >> was huge outcry by the members of the church against the culpable actions >> of the organization. Also, there was considerable outcry by the priests >> (as opposed to bishops etc.) >> >> I've had several similar but less severe differences with the church. >> The local bishop, for example, sent a memo to all his staff and priests, >> and asked for it to be read at mass. I started telling my priest about >> this and he stopped me after the first words, with a vehement outburst >> about how the vast majority agreed with me. And they were later quite open >> about this. >> >> What I have discovered about religion is that this organization vs >> community is important. All organizations out there: please raise your >> hand if you are perfect! I know a guy who had to raise his voice, via a >> web site, about the Bad and Ugly at LANL. I can point you to "liberal" >> groups within most organizations which do speak out and do have >> organizational leaders who do so as well. >> >> The discussion on child abuse was so much discussed from the pulpit that >> I learned a great deal. One was a plea to protect homosexuals within the >> community, child abuse is orthogonal to homosexuality. Another was that >> the percentage of child abuse in various organizations (recently the NFL >> for example) is often the same degree and handled as badly. >> >> Any way, I see your points and agree with them. >> >> -- Owen >> >> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Douglas Roberts >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of >>> continuity from the last couple of conversations: >>> >>> Well, I apparently was not clear: >>> 1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, >>> thanks! >>> 2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it >>> out. >>> 3 - He remains oddly quiet. >>> 4 - I find this worthy of blame. >>> >>> ---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received >>> no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being >>> made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this >>> another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response: >>> >>> *Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" >>> Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups >>> in that religion.* >>> >>> >>> Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were >>> turned into a question: >>> >>> *So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely >>> remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant >>> child sex abuse in their church?* >>> >>> No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, >>> demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be >>> the requirement that Catholic priests be quote *celibate *end quote* *that >>> is the reason for this? >>> >>> Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my >>> opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, >>> the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, >>> stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new >>> "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections. >>> >>> Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have >>> remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at >>> those who dare to criticize their church? >>> >>> ---> End of new thread. >>> >>> 5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere. >>> 6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread. >>> >>> -- >>> Doug Roberts >>> [email protected] >>> [email protected] >>> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >>> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >>> 505-455-7333 - Office >>> 505-670-8195 - Cell >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > [email protected] > [email protected] > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
