True, my citizenship is American. Not exactly the same as voluntarily joining an organization, but close enough for the sake of this discussion. However I don't make excuses for America. Nor am I silent about criticizing it's weaknesses, which I believe is the point you were complaining about on the past three FRIAM threads.
--Doug On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]> wrote: > So you bought into the USA "organization"? > > You pay taxes that kill people, that fight wars you detest. > > This may seem absurd, but I have kept a passport valid over the years > since I realized I don't buy completely into the USA organization. I may > find I have to leave. > > At least the church has come out vocally against all wars. > > .. and I'd prefer we carry on over a beer, not over bits! > > -- Owen > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Douglas Roberts <[email protected]>wrote: > >> A thoughtful and well articulated response Owen, thanks. >> >> We only appear to differ regarding your distinction between >> "Organization" and "Community". The way look at it is that if you >> voluntarily join an organization, you have become a part of it. Period. >> If you allow that organization to continue to fail a moral obligation, >> every member of that organization shares an equal part of the blame. There >> is no "them" and "us" in the Catholic church. There is you. Deal with your >> problems. >> >> --Doug >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Owen Densmore <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> Sorry to be late responding .. we're getting ready for a trip to Italy >>> for 6 weeks and boy, does that require a LOT of work! >>> >>> As I understand it, you're pointing out that the catholic church was >>> culpably silent on the child sex scandals. I TOTALLY agree! >>> >>> I'd like to distinguish between organizations and the community. >>> Although the organization failed as you say, the community did not. There >>> was huge outcry by the members of the church against the culpable actions >>> of the organization. Also, there was considerable outcry by the priests >>> (as opposed to bishops etc.) >>> >>> I've had several similar but less severe differences with the church. >>> The local bishop, for example, sent a memo to all his staff and priests, >>> and asked for it to be read at mass. I started telling my priest about >>> this and he stopped me after the first words, with a vehement outburst >>> about how the vast majority agreed with me. And they were later quite open >>> about this. >>> >>> What I have discovered about religion is that this organization vs >>> community is important. All organizations out there: please raise your >>> hand if you are perfect! I know a guy who had to raise his voice, via a >>> web site, about the Bad and Ugly at LANL. I can point you to "liberal" >>> groups within most organizations which do speak out and do have >>> organizational leaders who do so as well. >>> >>> The discussion on child abuse was so much discussed from the pulpit that >>> I learned a great deal. One was a plea to protect homosexuals within the >>> community, child abuse is orthogonal to homosexuality. Another was that >>> the percentage of child abuse in various organizations (recently the NFL >>> for example) is often the same degree and handled as badly. >>> >>> Any way, I see your points and agree with them. >>> >>> -- Owen >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Douglas Roberts >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of >>>> continuity from the last couple of conversations: >>>> >>>> Well, I apparently was not clear: >>>> 1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, >>>> thanks! >>>> 2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it >>>> out. >>>> 3 - He remains oddly quiet. >>>> 4 - I find this worthy of blame. >>>> >>>> ---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received >>>> no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being >>>> made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this >>>> another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response: >>>> >>>> *Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" >>>> Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups >>>> in that religion.* >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were >>>> turned into a question: >>>> >>>> *So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely >>>> remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant >>>> child sex abuse in their church?* >>>> >>>> No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, >>>> demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be >>>> the requirement that Catholic priests be quote *celibate *end quote* *that >>>> is the reason for this? >>>> >>>> Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my >>>> opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, >>>> the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, >>>> stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new >>>> "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections. >>>> >>>> Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have >>>> remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at >>>> those who dare to criticize their church? >>>> >>>> ---> End of new thread. >>>> >>>> 5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere. >>>> 6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Doug Roberts >>>> [email protected] >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >>>> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >>>> 505-455-7333 - Office >>>> 505-670-8195 - Cell >>>> >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Roberts >> [email protected] >> [email protected] >> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >> <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> >> 505-455-7333 - Office >> 505-670-8195 - Cell >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- Doug Roberts [email protected] [email protected] http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
